NOTICE:
DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION
This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering medical services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licensed healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licensed medical supervision.
Hello,
I am beginning my MSE+facemask journey due to @varbrah @futuremalemodel , starting at 38 intermolar, will keep this updated, will be using bone remodeling tools during the journey, looking for 12mm of expansion and as much protraction as humanly possible
currently a class 2 getting bsso post 9 months
Awesome, did you already get set up for it by an ortho already, and if so can you tell us which one?
not yet on may 28th I will , got it fitted being shipped from great lakes ortho company and orthodontic harmony was the place highly recommend good prices man
Whoa!! You’re going to squint your eyes. Your IMW isn’t bad.
What’s your nasolabial angle?
getting new seph will measure curious on what you guys think about seph i have curve of spee to a great degree ortho said, so good reminder to check
I hope you know you have to get an ortho to install the MSE for you since you need to drill screws into your palate right?
Yup installed on the 28th of next month
Nice! I believe I have about the same IMW for my first molars (I measured using measuring tape and my plastic retainers) and am looking to get MSE with a Face Mask for my under bite ASAP!
-Melius
Why are you getting BSSO afterwards? Would it be to bring your lower jaw forward after your maxilla is protracted?
-Melius
Hi, nice man let me know how it goes or pm me, and yeah MSE will bring lower jaw forward slightly but I still have a bad bite so it won't completely save
Will do (I'll create a topic focused on my case study) and I just PM'd you.
-Melius
Which doctor is doing MSE+Facemask on you?
30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.
Oh and also man are you class II division 1 or 2?
@Le_Fort_or_Bust I'm planning on doing a consultation with two Orthos in the Los Angeles area. Dr MacGinnis (Won Moon used to work with him) and Dr. Ting (overall attitude seems just based on website seems more based). Will get treatment started ASAP.
More details here: Choosing Doctor for MSE + FM for Class III Bite
-Melius
What do you mean with bone remodeling tools?
What do you mean with bone remodeling tools?
I second this question.
-Melius
@Le_Fort_or_Bust I'm planning on doing a consultation with two Orthos in the Los Angeles area. Dr MacGinnis (Won Moon used to work with him) and Dr. Ting (overall attitude seems just based on website seems more based). Will get treatment started ASAP.
More details here: Choosing Doctor for MSE + FM for Class III Bite
-Melius
If my bite is even as it has been straightened by braces will these docs refuse treatment with MSE+Facemask for aesthetic purposes (widening the face and such)?
30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.
If my bite is even as it has been straightened by braces will these docs refuse treatment with MSE+Facemask for aesthetic purposes (widening the face and such)?
Oof, that's a tough one. Do you mean your teeth are straight? Or do you mean you have a correct bite? My teeth were straightened but I still have an underbite, hence, I seem like a good candidate for MSE + Face Mask just on the face of it.
IF you already have a "good bite", then i don't know...technically both your jaws could be set back and you'd still have a correct bite. If that's the case, then you're likely to have airway issues and would be a candidate for at least some sort of procedure, even aesthetically, I'm somewhat confident you'd be a candidate for something. As far as MSE is concerned, if you have a narrow palate, even with a "good bite" then you can probably be a candidate. As far as using a Face Mask, I dont' know... @neverrelaxed is a class ii overbite and yet he still plans on using a Face Mask.
-Melius
If my bite is even as it has been straightened by braces will these docs refuse treatment with MSE+Facemask for aesthetic purposes (widening the face and such)?
Oof, that's a tough one. Do you mean your teeth are straight? Or do you mean you have a correct bite? My teeth were straightened but I still have an underbite, hence, I seem like a good candidate for MSE + Face Mask just on the face of it.
IF you already have a "good bite", then i don't know...technically both your jaws could be set back and you'd still have a correct bite. If that's the case, then you're likely to have airway issues and would be a candidate for at least some sort of procedure, even aesthetically, I'm somewhat confident you'd be a candidate for something. As far as MSE is concerned, if you have a narrow palate, even with a "good bite" then you can probably be a candidate. As far as using a Face Mask, I dont' know... @neverrelaxed is a class ii overbite and yet he still plans on using a Face Mask.
-Melius
Well my teeth are straight, but tilted to compensate for jaw misalignment. Yes, my bite is good, but again - not because my jaws are even, the teeth have been tipped with braces to correct for jaw misalignment. I want to correct the jaw misalignment and then realign the teeth so they fit. I need this for aesthetics first and foremost.
30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.
Hello,
I am actually in the same boat where my bite is already good, but my IMW is only 33mm...
What you said above I feel really resonates with my situation. I do have a Class I/good bite, but both jaws may be set back...
My sleep medicine specialist is recommending MMA (double jaw advancement surgery) and the cool thing is that my insurance might be able to pay for it all. But I want to see if MSE + FM is possible for me. I know for a fact I am in need of anter-posterior advancement for both my jaws. Check my photos out at this post on this forum here.
My lower jaw may need to be expanded by the bone via mandibular symphyseal distraction osteogenesis if orthodontic treatment can't correct my bite post-MSE since my upper arch's IMW will express a great difference to my lower arch's IMW.
@drmario I see, I don't have much time to share my thoughts but perhaps see someone who provides MSE. Where are you located?
-Melius
Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw
What should I do guys? Facemask is key
Facemasks are cheap. Just get one yourself
I would get DNA! Does a real counter-rotation (also remodels palate for midface shortening). DNA with splints allow for mandible but to advance. I don’t know what you look like, but most class 2 with long midface and clockwise rotation just need DNA with acrylic by Vivos practitioner.
Or you can wait a few years for Invisalign’s light-based treatments. They are targeting short mandibles and all kind of bone/teeth manipulation.
*mandible bite to advance...*
MSE doesn’t shorten midface hardly. Reshaping like Vivos and Sue Lee (even braces... even smile direct club widening) does. Adding surface area to the palate means that now you have a palate with less chance of lowering through reshaping to normal the deformities. Unless the deformity is a palate that has inadequate surface area.
*lowering vault*
Hi, Dark indigo thank you for response how many MM of expansion can you get with DNA? can you attach a facemask?
The only time MSE makes sense is for highly constricted arches on someone with appropriate midface length. Doing a palatal reshaping just would drop the palate too low and make airway through mouth/tongue area too small.
Can I pm you pics dark indigo?
Sure thing! For some reason I cannot send PMs to people I haven’t before. It’s super weird, because for some reason @TGW the drop down selection of names to send to doesn’t appear. Typing in directly won’t send, since you have to select the recipient from the drop down. I am on mobile and haven’t checked desktop, but expect the same.
I believe you can attach facemask. You don’t want the typical reverse-pull ones with counterpressure on the forehead and chin. You’d need a McNamara design. Also, I wouldn’t do the bow, because it a shot in the dark...no real results I’ve seen and causes neck strain, can’t sleep with it in, they pulled random photos off the web for their before/after photos. It is not a medical device and super speculative to replace bimax. I like how they’re thinking, but your counter-pressure matters. The McNamara facemask has counter-pressure on upper cheekbones. Dr. Jim McNamara is pretty awesome. I would possibly look into that design. If cheeks are flat, I might just use a hockey mask. LOL
I’m a total cheapskate. If I needed to advance my mandible... it obviously would need to be done on a case-basis how to treat... but I don’t think I’d spend more than $5.
@neverrelaxed Hey man do you think your ortho would take me on for MSE + Face Mask (I’m a Class III). I don’t want to waste funds flying to just get rejected. I just went to California to get my consultation and the ortho recommended surgery, but said IF I did MSE with him, he would’t use a Face Mask but would instead bring using TADs, bring my lower jaw back :/
I def can, did you try to explain why you don't lower jaw back?
Yes; he believes my class iii is far too severe for face mask to be able to protract my maxilla enough.
I’d need about a whole tooth’s worth of protraction and he said in adults, MSE plus facemask produces results but he’s not sure it’d produce that much results and thinks it’d be a waste. SO he wanted to extract my wisdom teeth (which are perfectly erupted) and use tads to slightly bring my upper jaw forward, and slightly bring my lower jaw back.
Obviously this wouldn’t do ANYTHING for my midfacial development, and man, the maxillary and zygomatic complex improvements in MSE with face mask are impressive, even in adults.
Also, do any of you know more info on that Quebec doctor who wrote about doing MSE and mandibular expansion? He seems way more “based” on this sort of stuff, just looking at his slideshow
He seems good looking at that slideshow as well trying to find MSDO providers in the east coast if possible after MSE, and would you want to double jaw post MSE+FM? MSE+FM if you keep your sutures open long enough I believe 1mm per week, how many mm you need?
My ortho told me she can help complete double jaw post mse, however I am going my own route post mse which is MSDO followed by a lefort and BSSO
Just reached out to Dr. Sylvain Chamberland about MDSO
Hold on I’m getting a bit confused about your case tbh. Can you tell me exactly what your current problems are, what you think will be addressed by MSE, and then what you plan on doing afterwards and what you think that will accomplish?
I’ll do the same:
Problems:
•Underbite (not sure how many mms would be needed of protraction) due to backwards maxilla
•upper arch IMW is about 37 and lower is about 39
•Airway issues due to both of the above
•Overall lack of midfacial development (midface, cheekbones, etc.) also due to the first two problems
•lower Midline to the side (whole lower jaw/chin is slightly off center)
•both upper and lower jaws slightly canted.
•SLIGHT Gummy smile
Procedure: MSE + Lower arch expansion
Addresses: Narrow IMW, midfacial width, airway
•Definitely doable: widen my upper arch so it’s 4 mm wider than lower (that’s what’s recommended)= 6mm expansion
•HOWEVER I’d love to max out the expansion and get High 40’s range IMW, but to do that, I’d need to expand 12 mms, and that would leave my upper arch 10 mm wider than lower, far too wide for perfect occlusion. To address this I’d look for an appliance to expand my lower IMW by around 6 mm. I’m VERY interested in mandibular distraction but in all honesty for my case I think an appliance like DNA or trombone would be able to expand 6 mm lower arch.
Procedure: Face Mask when done with MSE
Addresses: Underbite, lack of midfacial and zygomatic forward growth (slightly), airway
•Not sure how much I’d need to protract for a perfect bite, and according to my first consultation it’s *probably* too much for face mask to fix on it’s own.
•HOWEVER, any amount protraction based on bone-anchored Face Mask will produce better aesthetics than the same amount from a simple Lefort, since the whole midface including cheekbones can be advanced. Even a few MMs create a big difference.
POTENTIAL PROCEDURE: BSSO and Maxillary Impaction
Addresses: Canted Jaws, Asymmetric Midline, Gummy Smile
•Perhaps some of these things (like the midline) can be fixed through MSE and lower expansion, however, the others are probably only fixable through these surgeries.
POTENTIAL PROCEDURE: Lefort (not sure which?)
Addresses: Any maxillary protraction I still need after MSE + Face Mask
•I really really hope I can avoid this, but if after face mask my maxilla is still slightly too far back, I will need it :/
If I could somehow get all of the things listed above, I genuinely would in a heartbeat, the functional AND aesthetic improvement to my face and skull would be monumental I feel.
Guys if you need lower arch expansion via MDSO I would focus on that first then upper via MSE, I am learning this the hard way possibly, consult wednesday with Dr. Chamberline any q's
I believe you can attach facemask. You don’t want the typical reverse-pull ones with counterpressure on the forehead and chin. You’d need a McNamara design. Also, I wouldn’t do the bow, because it a shot in the dark...no real results I’ve seen and causes neck strain, can’t sleep with it in, they pulled random photos off the web for their before/after photos. It is not a medical device and super speculative to replace bimax. I like how they’re thinking, but your counter-pressure matters. The McNamara facemask has counter-pressure on upper cheekbones. Dr. Jim McNamara is pretty awesome. I would possibly look into that design. If cheeks are flat, I might just use a hockey mask. LOL
What exact type of McNamara design would you recommend? Am only finding the one with counterpressure on the chin which will push back the mandible, what do you mean if the cheeks are flat use a hockey mask ..many thanks
search grummons face mask. i think that thats what he means.
@neverrelaxed can i pm you? or here if you don't mind me asking. i wanted to know how you got the mse shipped to you? just the overall process you went through and who you contacted. i have a class 3 and never realized it until now due to bad posture and trying to correct it led me to feeling uncomfortable as hell with my bite.. definitely need some good expansion..thx in advance
Sure man and with Grummons facemask can you adjust vector of pull do you know?
@neverrelaxed How is it going?
Did you get the MSE installed? How was that experience? Did you have a specific thread for you experience?
I'm calling my ortho on Monday to say OK go, let's order it! I'm a'scarredd of the screws but really am ready to breathe.
I saw your case, mse and facemask will definitely help you don't fear the procedure is easy you sneeze and tickles your nose thats it, any questions feel free to pm me
Or you can wait a few years for Invisalign’s light-based treatments. They are targeting short mandibles and all kind of bone/teeth manipulation.
Hi there, I’m curious, when you recommend and speak of this future invisialign devic, and the DNA, do you speak with adults in mind? Like is the information you’ve given above for growing the mandible applicable to adults? If so, this would be big. I’ve always wondered why more otrthos wouldn’t utilize light therapy
Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw
A literal orthodontist and professional who is experienced with the MSE told you that your case IS NOT suited for the facemask. Listen to her. It is for CLASS 3 patients.
If you install a face-mask, you will fuck up your face, regardless with a DNA or FAGGA appliance or not.
Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw
A literal orthodontist and professional who is experienced with the MSE told you that your case IS NOT suited for the facemask. Listen to her. It is for CLASS 3 patients.
If you install a face-mask, you will fuck up your face, regardless with a DNA or FAGGA appliance or not.
Do you have any proof that hooking a FM to an MSE appliance will ruin somebody’s face? Any case studies you can show?
Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw
A literal orthodontist and professional who is experienced with the MSE told you that your case IS NOT suited for the facemask. Listen to her. It is for CLASS 3 patients.
If you install a face-mask, you will fuck up your face, regardless with a DNA or FAGGA appliance or not.
Do you have any proof that hooking a FM to an MSE appliance will ruin somebody’s face? Any case studies you can show?
It's not the point. Half of what we say here isn't backed up by anything. It's discussion. Troll or not this is public.
@neverrelaxed invest on your body posture, especially cervical posture. Stand up str8 for a week and see if you can bite comfortably. Cervical posture drives your mandible forward. If you can comfortably stay in a class 1 on a good cervical posture or if you still have an overjet while standing up straight biting at your molars, just practice good oral posture and rethink your treatment.
If he's skeletally stable, ie no head tilts, no forward posture, no crossbites, class 3, no tmj issues,nothing that's messing with his occlusal plane, if he can bite comfortably at the molar level and he's in fact a class 2/1, he doesn't need a facemask. He just said he's got an 8mm over jet. The problem and focus would be the lower jaw. Granted the mandible is mobile but if he lacks growth there expanding the upper arch won't magically expand the bottom. It's not like the mandible can move anywhere, there's a natural position to it that's efficient on airway and body posture and that's where it should sit.
Then again, I haven't seen any pics.
Great post rolfcopters thanks
@ulcanewbie
I DIDN'T ASK FOR OPINION HEAR ME!! 🤬 GET OFF MY THREAD
Hello,
I am beginning my MSE+facemask journey due to @varbrah @futuremalemodel , starting at 38 intermolar, will keep this updated, will be using bone remodeling tools during the journey, looking for 12mm of expansion and as much protraction as humanly possible
currently a class 2 getting bsso post 9 months
Before and after pics please! Which doctor are you visiting?
30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.
I will give good updates with pic promise, what happens if you overexpand your upper jaw? ortho wants to stop treatment at like 3mm ,