DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION
This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering medical services to the individual reader. Do notuse the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licensed healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licensed medical supervision.
It is Highly Recommended that you also join the community on
I was initially going to make a post sharing pictures of what I believed was legitimate progress, but after taking more accurate photos, I have realized this was most likely due to camera distortion. Here's a GIF of what I believed was progress:
...and here's a GIF of where this "progress" is negligible-to-nonexistent:
Both sets of photos are exactly 6 months apart, and just to be clear, the pictures of me with longer hair are supposed to be the "afters." In case anyone's wondering, I am 23.
This is very disheartening, since I have believed that I've been making aesthetic progress over the past several months. This belief was further reinforced by observing more-prominent cheekbones and deeper-set eyes in the mirror. I am questioning now whether this was confirmation bias on my part, or the result of muscular / soft-tissue improvements that are not easily recognizable in the photos.
So what's up? Well, as another user of this forum notes, the available conclusions are that 1) mewing is ineffective at improving craniofacial dystrophy (CFD) in adults, 2) it takes a very long time for changes to become visible, or 3) there is something wrong with my technique.
To my mind, #3 is very likely, since:
I cannot put my tongue against the soft palate while maintaining the ability to breathe. I can raise my tongue to my second molars (my third molars / wisdom teeth have been removed), but that's as far as it'll go. If I try to go further, I either choke, or require so much effort doing so that I can't maintain it.
I have woken up with an open mouth numerous times (life-long habit), which leads me to believe that I probably don't practice good oral posture while sleeping at all (or only occasionally).
As far as I can tell, aside from teeth-tipping, my IMW has not expanded. If I were mewing correctly, it would be reasonable to assume that I would have achieved some expansion. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's very likely that I have been focusing too much on pushing upwards with my tongue, without pressing laterally against my molars.
On a side note, my IMW is fairly good for someone with CFD: about 40-42mm (depending on the tipping of my molars). Despite this, I have teeth crowding, forward-tipping of the incisors, and feel a lot of tightness when attempting to fit my tongue between my teeth. I also have a vaulted palate. Perhaps under proper environmental conditions, my IMW was meant to be wider than average.
I haven't practiced a tongue suction-hold or proper lip seal until about two weeks ago.
I sometimes let my tongue and jaw slack when reading or otherwise concentrating on something.
I only recently started feeling sensations in my cheeks and other regions of the skull. This came after I began practicing a better suction hold.
I do not practice hard chewing (I used mastic gum before, but it became too expensive).
I would be grateful for any sort of feedback, really, but I would be foremost interested in any personal experience or advice that could help me address the points above. I'm also curious if anyone here has initially struggled to achieve progress, but eventually achieved progress upon improving their technique. I have a suspicion that many of those who get into mewing only perform a fraction of what constitutes a good oral posture, and that this in part accounts for the limited evidence of mewing improving CFD.
My next step is to get a palate expander (I have already purchased one, but I have yet to make and send in a teeth mold). I suspect that it may be my vaulted palate that is causing a "bottleneck" in achieving visible progress. In the meantime, I will work to improve my oral posture further.
EDIT: I would disregard the difference in the lip area, since I was most likely curling my lips upward a bit in the first photo.
The lip seal and suction hold is really important imo, and It should feel somewhat natural, with your tongue position you should be able to open and close your mouth and have your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth, you feel it. A lot of this is going by feel, try to organise your mouth into something that doesnt need to be forced, allow your whole palate to be covered and let it touch your teeth if it wants to, afterall if you dont have enough space then obviously your tongue will want to push the teeth out the way, and I believe the palate will follow. On being choked, I have a similar problem, when I push my head back it sounds like a im snoring, but more space is opened up when I pull my adams apple down, like yawning.
Just remember that everybody is different, and imagining your tongue as a sorta mold for your palate can give you a pretty good idea of where you'll be if you reach 'peak' development. some people have thin long tongues, others have big fatties. Also remember that this is 6 months of somewhat correct posture out of your whole life, thats a fraction, man.
Personally I think you look good to begin with, so you can only ascend further, longer hair suits you too.
your lips area is showing noticeable changes, and your jaw, and chin, Also some stuff going on around the top of your nose. and as you explain you probably havent had the correct posture for 6 months, yet there's still a difference. Stay motivated, you're doin well.
Thank you for your words of encouragement, and for your advice. I will work to be more cognisant of my oral posture, and improve upon the things that I still can't do very well. I will stick to my method of taking pictures, and will try to post an update in the future, should I notice any changes.
...your tongue position you should be able to open and close your mouth and have your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth, you feel it.
At the moment, my tongue covers about 70% of the palatal area that I believe it should be covering. It sticks to the roof of my mouth through a combination of suction and pushing. It does not yet feel natural, but definitely feels more comfortable than it used to. After all, I didn't use suction at all until recently. When I open my mouth however, I lose the suction hold and the mid section of my tongue falls down. Do you think that this should not be the case in a person with correct oral posture? On a related note, do you think that when speaking, a person's whole tongue should drop down, or should only the front / mid region be removed from the palate, while the back portion stays put?
Also remember that this is 6 months of somewhat correct posture out of your whole life, thats a fraction, man.
Good point. I actually started practicing a better oral posture a little over a year ago. Since my earliest photos go back to only 6 months ago, I do not have any visual records of any earlier progress that I might have achieved, but since when starting out, holding up just the front of my tongue felt awkward, I at the very least must have made some progress in terms of tongue strength, posture technique, and possibly soft-tissue.
By the way, I recall you mentioning in the other thread that you have seen only a few pictures suggesting actual aesthetic progress. Do you remember which pictures you were talking about?
Can´t offer much advice but I have to say those before/after photos are very well done. I recommend to take up chewing again (you can use a piece of mastic gum multiple times, put it in a plastic bag and wash it before you use it again or in a glass of water and put it in the fridge).
I explained this in another thread, but just for reference, my method of taking pictures is as follows:
I place a camera on a shelf, which has pencil markings for where the device should be set. This ensures that I always put the camera in the same exact spot. After that, I take several steps back and align myself with tape markings on the floor, which ensure that I always stand in the same spot. I then adopt a familiar posture (it's important to remember it), stare at the same spot outside my window (laundry pole) and allow the timer to take a photo. I usually take several pictures at a time, open them in Photoshop, select the picture that matches the original most accurately (the difference is usually incredibly small), and align them at the ear. Drawing guidance points over the original photo helps with this process.
One aspect that I haven't gotten right yet is lighting. This is because I have taken the first picture in natural light, and since this changes throughout the day and season, and depends on the weather, it's difficult to copy. Ideally, the original photo should have been taken under high-quality artificial light that remains the same. I didn't do this because my camera takes blurry photos under my current dim ceiling light. I'll see what I can do to minimize the difference in lighting for future pictures.
There's also the fact that my camera is of somewhat low quality. However, should any substantial changes occur, I assume that they would be recognizable in the pictures despite not being in HD. So, I'm not worried about camera quality at the present moment, though maybe I'll look into getting a better one in the future. We'll see.
Originally, I wasn't as obsessive about accuracy of the photos, but that's because I was underestimating the effect that a minor change in angle can have. I found that in the case of profile pictures, a discrepancy of just 2 pixels at the ear, can translate into something like 5 pixels of difference at the front of the face. I think that's the biggest takeaway.
Forwards growth is achieved by the teeth pressing down against one another while awake AND asleep. It pushes the maxilla up, the tongue does not do this which is the most common belief. Its actually the teeth. And no, don’t listen to anyone who thinks that damages teeth. It doesn’t. Tape your mouth shut at night, make sure your teeth are pressing against one another at all times, and try chin tucking... open mouth posture at night will ruin pretty much everything. Even wrap a headband around your head to make sure those teeth are in contact at night if you can’t sleep in chin tuck posture on your back which does this naturally.
When I open my mouth however, I lose the suction hold and the mid section of my tongue falls down. Do you think that this should not be the case in a person with correct oral posture?
I can open and close my mouth maintaining my tongue on the roof of my mouth. After my mouth/tongue is finished talking/eating/whatever, I put my tongue up to the palate, and usually there will be some air bubbles right around the mid section, push them out, usually by like 'swallowing' them, but the air just rises up out my nose anyway. After doing this I am in my neutral tongue position, and can relax without anything falling down. Needless to say it's difficult to explain, but if you're doing it right, when you open your mouth you'll feel an added suction.
do you think that when speaking, a person's whole tongue should drop down, or should only the front / mid region be removed from the palate, while the back portion stays put?
I speak normally, my tongue drops down but that's anatomically required so that air can pass out my mouth. If the back portion stays put, air will only come out my nose. It can be difficult to speak fluently when your tongue is too big for your palate though, when I'm trying to pronounce "L" for Lingerie I usually have an asymmetry where air only passes out one side of my mouth, this is part of the reason I personally want to expand my palate, I believe speech will improve a lot once your tongue has a good surface for pronunciation. As well as resonating nicely. Don't worry too much about speaking, there's only one or two ways to make sounds, let your tongue drop when you talk i reckon 🙂
you have seen only a few pictures suggesting actual aesthetic progress. Do you remember which pictures you were talking about?
Progress has some very interesting results, I would recommend this one above all, Look up "Progress of Progress" in adult case discussion. Jamo too but, yaknow, he dogged the forum way back, even deleted 'progress' pictures. Helmutstrebl I think is his name, people accused him of getting chin implants, lol.
John/Mike mews own lectures show progress, but I prefer John, he has an inkling of humour
Vancouver/November 2016 "How best to achieve forward facial growth by prof. John Mew" "Effect of extra-oral anchorage on craniofacial development by Dr. Mike Mew"
I found these fascinating and helpful in my understanding and intuition for how the jaws function, as well as showing examples of success stories with patients.
If anyone else knows of good results please let us know
Hope I have helped you elwynn 🙂 Sorry for taking this long to reply
I can open and close my mouth maintaining my tongue on the roof of my mouth. After my mouth/tongue is finished talking/eating/whatever, I put my tongue up to the palate, and usually there will be some air bubbles right around the mid section, push them out, usually by like 'swallowing' them, but the air just rises up out my nose anyway. After doing this I am in my neutral tongue position, and can relax without anything falling down. Needless to say it's difficult to explain, but if you're doing it right, when you open your mouth you'll feel an added suction.
That's very interesting. I also feel a sort of "air bubble" around the mid-section of my palate as I raise my tongue. However, unlike you, when I swallow this pocket of air, my tongue rises only to cover the hard palate (at worst), or the hard palate and a little bit of the soft palate (at best). The throat is left out of my equation; I feel no suction there. When I open my mouth, even slightly, I lose the suction in the mid-section so that only the front of the tongue remains up. Since you feel that you suction increases when you open your mouth, I likely still do not place my tongue up far enough. This is likely because my palate is still too narrow. After all, it was only once I was able to fit my tongue between my teeth without extreme tightness that I began feeling any suction whatsoever.
Progress has some very interesting results, I would recommend this one above all, Look up "Progress of Progress" in adult case discussion.
Right. I'm familiar with his thread. Though the pictures aren't perfectly accurate, they are definitely suggestive of progress. The fact that he was able to achieve significant IMW increase using just the tongue is also impressive. I've also heard of Jamo, but I will check out the other sources that you've listed. If he still plans to do so, I look forward to TGW posting pictures of his progress.
Thanks again, and yes, you've definitely helped by clarifying some things for me.
Am I crazy? I see forward growth of your maxilla. Trace a line in Photoshop over your nose and lips and jawline in the first photo then overlay it on the second one.
Hey, these are probably some of the best pictures on the forum!
Thanks!
I have a habit when mewing where I feel uncomfortable and break my lip seal to lick my lips or whatever. I feel this has harmed me a lot! Continuous lip seal is gonna be one of my goals from now on.
I think this depends on how long you break your lip seal for. If you break it only to lick your lips and soon after, resume correct lip seal, then I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone - including those with well-developed faces - has to break good oral posture at some point during the day in order to eat, talk, brush teeth, etc. The point is not to be a mewing-machine, but to train yourself so that you mew naturally when at rest.
Also I have trouble with breathing and mewing simultaneously. Speaks for itself really.
You obviously have a better view of your situation than I do, but if I were you, I would explore this further. I think that in order for mewing to be effective, you should be able to do it unconsciously; when there's a lot of mental effort required to maintain a good oral posture, then as soon as your mind directs its undivided attention towards a task at hand, you risk losing your good posture. Again, mewing should be your default when in a relaxed state.
I have never really felt sensations.
I haven't either, until quite recently when I started to engage more of my posterior tongue. If you're doing this already, then maybe there's a different element of mewing that you're missing?
While we have a basic idea of what good oral posture should be, we still lack a comprehensive understanding of all the processes at play. This is likely the reason why most people who pick up mewing do not seem to make any definitive progress that couldn't be chalked up to varied conditions between comparison pictures and personal delusion. Nonetheless, there's a sizable minority on this forum who are experiencing changes. Mewing is an unfinished project, and I think that @admin had the right idea when he said that he wouldn't be surprised if the "breakthrough" came from members of this forum. Now, whether the pioneer will actually prove to be one of us or a professional doctor isn't hugely important in the grand scheme of things, but the key takeaway from admin's statement is that we are in still in search of a better understanding. Since we're on the right track, I think that this breakthrough isn't far away.
In line with this reasoning, I found that what has helped me the most in my personal case is constantly learning and re-evaluating my oral posture. It seems that every few months, I notice something new that I ought to focus on.
I might be doing the suction hold wrong. Whenever I stop doing it, I hear a little sound that sounds like I broke the suction hold. Is this correct?
I hear this sound as well, but I'm probably not the best person to ask, since my suction hold is still in need of much improvement.
What do we mean by sensations anyway? Like a pressure in or around our cheekbones or something like that? Always confused me. It could be that I have felt these sensations and never knew the cause?
Anyway I checked up and I think I engage my posterior third and mew while doing other tasks. I'm gonna try to keep track of if I mew at sleep though, since while I am confident I don't have an open mouth while sleeping (no stuffy nose, don't feel tired, mouth is not dry, not snoring) I cannot be 100% sure.
What do we mean by sensations anyway? Like a pressure in or around our cheekbones or something like that? Always confused me. It could be that I have felt these sensations and never knew the cause?
I felt pressure around my cheekbones and cracks within the sphenoid region, and occasionally other parts of the skull as well. My ears also pop sometimes when I swallow hard, but I think that's the case with a lot of people, so I wouldn't consider that a "sensation" suggestive of progress.
Anyway I checked up and I think I engage my posterior third and mew while doing other tasks. I'm gonna try to keep track of if I mew at sleep though, since while I am confident I don't have an open mouth while sleeping (no stuffy nose, don't feel tired, mouth is not dry, not snoring) I cannot be 100% sure.
Unfortunately, I don't know what to recommend because in my case, the situation is simple: I frequently wake up with my mouth ajar and drool on the bed-sheet, so I know that I mouth-breathe during sleep. But, I'm almost certain that it's caused by my poor sleeping position (arms under my belly, lying with my face pressing down into the mattress). If I can re-train myself to sleep a different way, maybe I'll fix my mouth-breathing problem too.
Yeah, try to sleep on your back with you arms at your sides. Some people like to leave their head in a chin tuck position doing it. One thing I can recommend is to buy a really flat pillow, so your neck doesn't feel extended.
Other than that I don't know what else to do for myself. I guess it's to just examine if I'm mewing correctly every once in a while, and just to maybe stop thinking about it so much.
I have noticed a few aesthetic changes, since my original post. Here's a quick rundown:
Cheekbones more defined: I have noticed this improvement very early on, but it seems to have continued, and there is a noticeable change even in comparison to two months ago. I was initially unsure of whether this effect was exclusively due to facial musculature buildup, but the presence of other changes that appear skeletal makes me now lean toward the belief that this improvement is also skeletal. Besides, when padding my face dry with my hands recently, I have also noticed that the cheekbone region feels more "bony" than before; it's unlikely to be only soft-tissue.
Mid-face wider: The region between cheekbone and ear appears to have been especially widened. Perhaps this accounts for the greater definition in cheekbones. This, I believe to be skeletal.
Jaw slightly more angular: I have a very oval jawline, but my masseters have become more pronounced recently, giving my jawline a slightly more square look. When I bite down, I can see a line running from masseters to cheekbone that wasn't present before. Interestingly, I have not directly worked toward building up my masseter muscles: I do not chew gum, I do not chew my food hard (though perhaps I should start), and to my knowledge I do not clench. I've simply tried to keep my teeth gently together when at rest.
Chin appears slightly more pronounced: This is likely just due to having figured out better lip seal, but it could also be that this better lip seal allowed my front teeth to retrocline a bit (which is good in my case, since my front teeth are much too proclined)...or something else. I will keep an eye on it.
Nasal bump more pronounced: This is unfortunate. My nose has a small bump visible from the profile, but it is very pronounced from a 3 / 4 view, because although the dorsum doesn't stick out forward very much, it is quite wider than the nasion. If my mid-face has gotten wider, then it's possible that my dorsum also has, and this produced the effect on my nose. Unfortunate though it may be, I don't plan to alter my mewing practice. If good facial development gives me a nose with a bigger bump, so be it; I just want a healthy development. That being said, if I achieve any forward or upward development of the maxilla, it could offset this recent change, and make my nasal bump less prominent. I guess we'll see.
Apart from aesthetic changes, it's worth pointing out that my ability to maintain a good oral posture has also improved. I am, for instance, able to secure my tongue with a suction hold much further back the palate than I have before. In fact, I feel that I'm now able to, briefly, assume an oral posture that is ideal or near-ideal. The catch is that I can't maintain it for very long. Still, it means progress, considering that this used to be impossible for me to do, even for a brief moment.
Furthermore, as others have on several occasions pointed out elsewhere, progress is not necessarily linear. In my case, I observe that I stagnate whenever I stop questioning my oral posture and mewing practice. Progress for me seems to occur in bursts, accomplished over a period of time after I discover room for improvement in my posture and overall practice.
I have taken new comparison pictures, but I haven't made them into a GIF, because my quick glance at them doesn't perceive any significant changes that can't be attributed to angle or lighting. But, if anybody really wants to see them, I'll do that.
I made two GIFs: in the first comparison, both frames match in scale, and in the second one, the "after" was - by accident - taken a little closer to the camera, which required me to scale it down (by about 1.5%). Why am I even including a manipulated comparison GIF when I'm already posting one that is not manipulated? To hammer home my earlier point that small discrepancies in scale, distance, angle, etc. can have an unprecedentedly large impact on the perception of "changes". Case in point, although I only had to scale one of the "after" photos to get the frames to match, I had to rotate both of the "after" photos by about a degree or two to get them to align. This likely has an affect on how the midface was captured in the photos.
For this reason, I don't really trust these comparisons. Maybe I have achieved some minor structural improvement; maybe I haven't. It's hard to ascertain either because the "changes" visible in the pictures may be illusory - they may simply be products of camera distance, rotation, angle, scale, lighting, etc. Anyway, here they are:
EDIT: For anyone turning in here, these before-and-afters are about 8 months apart.
Oh, I didn't bother covering my eyes this time, but please avoid sharing these pictures elsewhere, if you can avoid it. Thanks.
It's hard to gauge changes based on individual features but looking at the big picture you look better in general. Around the eyes and your skin tone looks much better. Your posture is improving too. There's a subtle yet noticeable change in the personality of your face that is an improvement i reck
Thank you. In regard to the eyes, I think that they look better in the "after" mainly because I was looking downward in the "before". Nonetheless, I do notice a change in eye support and cheekbone definition in the mirror. In fact, I notice a lot of subtle improvements in the mirror. It's a shame that it's difficult to capture them in photos. Maybe if I had a good camera and a reliable set up, it would be possible, though. I would love to be able to corroborate what I see in the mirror with objective visual evidence. I also regret not taking frontal or 3/4 view photos earlier, because it's from those angles that most of the changes are recognizable. Maybe I will start.
As to my posture, yes, it has definitely improved. I distinctly remember that when I was taking the first "before" picture, I struggled to breathe with my tongue in the back. For the "after" photo, though, that wasn't wasn't a problem.
Yeah, it isn't too hard to do so by the way. Measure between your bizygomatic width (distance between your cheekbones) and from the bottom of your brow bone to the top of your upper lip
I think it's largely camera distortion that's producing this effect. If there were any real, structural changes, then they're probably very subtle, and can't yet be picked up by the camera. I have observed improvements more clearly in the mirror, but most of those are probably soft-tissue changes.
I'm not necessarily convinced that all forms of CFD will be resolved by upswing of the maxilla, and I entertain other methods by which the skull will adapt to a healthier posture. So, I'm not quick to make judgments about precisely what happened between the before and after; I'm just looking for any tangible changes at all, really.
Can you elaborate more on soft tissue changes? I get the idea of mewings purpose to hopefully move or grow bone, but how does it change soft tissue without skeletal movement. Also, what soft tissue changes are you seeing?
Can you elaborate more on soft tissue changes? I get the idea of mewings purpose to hopefully move or grow bone, but how does it change soft tissue without skeletal movement. Also, what soft tissue changes are you seeing?
Well, I think that before any real skeletal changes take place, some soft tissue improvements have to be made because it's the musculature that guides the body into a proper posture. Those of us who have had a bad posture for most of our lives are likely to be deficient in the strength of many muscles. This is evidenced, for example, by the fact that many beginners struggle to hold up their tongues when starting out, though this gets easier over time. I think that once the deficient muscles are built up enough to facilitate a good posture, then bones will respond by adapting.
Some of the soft-tissue changes that I have observed are:
More pronounced cheekbones: When looking at myself from the front in my bathroom mirror, I see that while the sides of my cheeks are obscured by shadow, the regions under my eyes catch more light. In the 3/4 view, my cheekbone used to form almost a vertical line from my eye, but now there is a small bump there.
My cheeks appear a little less chubby.
More defined masseters: when I bite down, I can now trace a line going from my masseters to my cheekbones, which wasn't there before. Though I have a round jawline when looking at myself from the front, I can make it appear more rectangular when I flex my masseters - again, that wasn't the case before (note: I do not encourage clenching).
Brow more defined: My forehead used to be smooth, but now I see a subtle dimple above the glabella and more pronunciation around the corrugation muscles. In general, I think this makes my forehead look a little more masculine.
Since learning how to suction my tongue to the roof of my mouth, the area of my throat under my jaw no longer droops down at rest.
There are more subtle changes that I've observed, but it's difficult to pin all of them down. In general, my face looks a bit more defined, and I find it fairly simple to hold a decent (if not yet ideal) posture, whereas previously, I had to exert a lot of physical and mental effort to do so.
I posted instructions on how I took my comparison photos in my earlier response on this thread.
How did you make sure you had no head tilt sideways.?
This is one of the deficiencies of my method: I haven't done that. If you wanted to do that, you'd probably have to perch your head on some tripod, or something. I also haven't equalized the lighting, and although I marked off where I should stand and place the camera, I still probably end up shifting myself or the camera around 1cm each time. You'd probably need a studio quality set up to take perfect comparison photos (which is not to say that it's outside of our reach).
That change in brow is very interesting to me. I’m the exact opposite. I used to have a very pronounced bulges above my eyebrows. I used to be able hang my glasses above them. Since my maxilla has came down my forehead is now smooth even the wrinkles went away and thus my forehead appears taller.
Sound like if a person can get downward movement they can possibly get upward movement as well. That’s pretty cool to hear.
The thread exploring the differences between the masseter and the temporal pattern motivated me to adjust my chewing habits. I used to prioritize biting forwards, toward my incisors, under the belief that this would promote forward growth. I doubt that I made any significant progress in that regard, but what biting primarily forwards did is increase the size of my masseters. Well, because of the aforementioned thread, I started biting backwards with my molars, in addition to the forward chewing that I was used to. Backward chewing mainly flexed the muscles behind my temples, but also the muscles directly above my masseters (my knowledge of anatomy is poor; maybe someone can guess what these muscles are called?). Anyway, over a month or two of this practice, I noticed some minor changes in the musculature of my face. Notably, I saw an increase in the size of the muscles right above my masseters. Here's an illustration:
It's possible that I have also developed the muscles behind my temples (it would make sense, after all, since I've been flexing them), but I can't speak much about that, because it's harder for me to assess what changes (if any) occurred there.
Note that this change is very minor, and probably only muscular. I doubt that I've achieved any noticeable skeletal improvement (so far), and I don't think these changes would be easily noticeable in pictures. Nonetheless, I'm certain that they have occurred, because I've been scrutinizing my face in the mirror in the same fashion, under the same lighting, and at the same time of the day for a while now.
Update 2:
I'll include here a few pictures of a mold of my upper teeth, which I received recently. I think they shine a light on the nature of my problem - in particular, just how proclined my upper incisors are. Again, this is most likely the result of my orthodontist shifting my teeth around (it is not the result of me pushing my tongue against my incisors, since that's not a habit I have). In case anyone's curious, the distance between my first molars (measured from where the teeth meet the gums) is about 36mm. The IMW between the second molars is greater (around 40mm).
I have started using the Schwartz expander from Braces Shop, about two and a half months ago (to be clear, this is the device that expands only laterally; that is, width-wise). From what I've read (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I saw various figures on this) Dr. Mew recommends a 1/4mm turn every 2-5 days, as he considers this pace the "sweet spot" between expansion that is too fast (which may be too traumatic for the bone structure), and too slow (which lacks the force to affect bone, and instead only affects teeth).
Additional Context (Feel Free to Skip)
Initially, I planned to expand semi-rapidly, but once I adjusted the expander's screw, and felt its pressure on my teeth, I became scared that it would cause damage, and opted to expand at a slower rate. In retrospect, there was no reason for this worry, since the pressure of the device was mild and very tolerable; I was just being paranoid. Because of how slowly I was turning the screw, and with the added fact that I only wore the expander for about 14 hours per day, I saw no real changes for probably around a month. They eventually appeared, very gradually, but for a while I couldn't tell whether they were just teeth movement, or if actual bone changes have taken place. The effects became clear once I started wearing the expander more consistently (~22 hours / day), and little-by-little increased the rate at which I turn the screw. About a week and a half ago, I reached the pace of semi-rapid expansion (which is where I will remain), and have widened the expander by a total of about 3mm. Since I have experienced no unintended effects, I feel much safer about using the device now. Anyway, here are the changes...
The Changes
1. Obvious diastema (gap) between the two upper, front incisors. It is about 1mm wide, but tends to be bigger (~1.5mm) immediately after I wake up - likely due to the obvious fact that when I'm asleep, I don't remove the expander for at least a solid 8 hours; during the day, though, I occasionally have to remove the expander to eat, floss, brush my teeth, etc., which gives my teeth an opportunity to relapse a bit. This suggests that at least a portion of the lateral expansion is due to teeth movement, rather than paletal growth (since it's unlikely that the palate would relapse so quickly). However, I am certain that some paletal growth has taken place, because of change #2, listed below.
2. A reddish-pinkish line of a tone different from the rest of my palate now overlays my maxillary suture. I believe that this is where a gap between the two halves of my palate is beginning to form, and new bone will be laid. The line varies a bit in color along its length - from red to very pale pink, and almost white. It also varies in width - starting from about 0.5mm or less at the front, and expanding to about 1mm at the center, through the back of the palate. These two observations suggest that some segments of this new separation are further along in the process. Also, the fact that the line is about 0.5mm near my incisors, and the diastema between those incisors is about 1mm suggests a ratio of 1:2 for paletal expansion vs teeth movement.
My large phone made it difficult for me to take a picture of my palate, so instead I drew an illustration of the line in question:
It's worth mentioning that I drew this about a week ago, and since then, the line appears to have grown marginally wider, but its reddish regions have turned paler. The change in color is possibly owed to more bone being laid to fill the gap, but that's just a guess.
3. When I bite down, my masseters appear much more pronounced than before. I'm confident in this, because I've been analyzing my jawline in the exact same fashion for a long time: while standing in front of a mirror, I will do a gentle duck face, and clench. I do it this way because my cheeks are so chubby (despite me being underweight) that they obscure the shape of my jawline. In fact, at rest, my lower third is oval and lacking in any angularity because of my facial fat. Anyway, when I would do the duck-face-and-clench routine in the past, I'd see my masseters flex, but they wouldn't cause the jawline to substantially change in shape - it would still remain oval, just slightly more angular. When I do this routine now, however, the flex of my masseters is pronounced enough that it temporarily gives my jawline an almost square appearance. I reason that this is a result of either 1) the occlusion of my teeth improving, allowing for more teeth to make contact when I form a bite, which in turn allows for a greater masseter response, 2) my mandible expanding laterally, or a combination of both of these possibilities. To be honest, I think that #1 is the most likely cause, since my jawline hasn't changed in shape when at rest (as far as I can tell), and I doubt that my mandible could noticeably expand in such a short period of time.
4. My chin appears marginally sharper. For context, the main reason for why it looked / looks retruded in the first place is because my bottom incisors protrude forward, pushing my lower lip out, and making the chin point appear further back than it actually is. Because the expander widened my palate, shifted my teeth, and changed my occlusion a little bit, my lower lip potentially doesn't stick out as much, and this maybe accounts for the minor improvement.
5. I can now fit my tongue a little more comfortably between my teeth.
Some Additional Observations
Despite the expansion of my upper dental arch, I have not seen much expansion in my lower dental arch. Maybe some expansion occurred there, but definitely not on par with the upper arch. To be honest, I'm not surprised by this. It stands to reason that when the upper arch begins expanding due to an improvement in oral posture, the entire body works together as one system to see through this change. When a device is used, however, only one mechanism induces the change - not a whole array of connected mechanisms as in the case of natural improvement - and so, those parts of the body that aren't being directly stimulated by that mechanism have a harder time catching up. All of this fits into my belief that expanders are limited in their efficacy, if they are not coupled with an improvement in oral posture. My hope is that my device will expand my upper arch enough that I'm able to keep my tongue up at all times, and that with time, this postural improvement will allow my lower arch to keep up. I think this is sound, considering that any expansion progress I've made in the past using the tongue alone occurred on upper and lower arches.
One worry I have is that the expander is slowly beginning to fit me less, the more that I turn its screw. For example, it no longer presses against the mid-line of my palate as tightly as it did before, and it rests slightly differently on each side (which is probably due to an asymmetry that I have).
My face on the whole looks subtly more "athletic", and there are more changes that I could name, but those listed above are the most noticeable improvements, and the ones that I chose to leave off are too minor to be certain of. I may talk about them in the future, if they become more pronounced, though.
I have started using the Schwartz expander from Braces Shop, about two and a half months ago (to be clear, this is the device that expands only laterally; that is, width-wise). From what I've read (and please correct me if I'm wrong; I saw various figures on this) Dr. Mew recommends a 1/4mm turn every 2-5 days, as he considers this pace the "sweet spot" between expansion that is too fast (which may be too traumatic for the bone structure), and too slow (which lacks the force to affect bone, and instead only affects teeth).
Additional Context (Feel Free to Skip)
Initially, I planned to expand semi-rapidly, but once I adjusted the expander's screw, and felt its pressure on my teeth, I became scared that it would cause damage, and opted to expand at a slower rate. In retrospect, there was no reason for this worry, since the pressure of the device was mild and very tolerable; I was just being paranoid. Because of how slowly I was turning the screw, and with the added fact that I only wore the expander for about 14 hours per day, I saw no real changes for probably around a month. They eventually appeared, very gradually, but for a while I couldn't tell whether they were just teeth movement, or if actual bone changes have taken place. The effects became clear once I started wearing the expander more consistently (~22 hours / day), and little-by-little increased the rate at which I turn the screw. About a week and a half ago, I reached the pace of semi-rapid expansion (which is where I will remain), and have widened the expander by a total of about 3mm. Since I have experienced no unintended effects, I feel much safer about using the device now. Anyway, here are the changes...
The Changes
1. Obvious diastema (gap) between the two upper, front incisors. It is about 1mm wide, but tends to be bigger (~1.5mm) immediately after I wake up - likely due to the obvious fact that when I'm asleep, I don't remove the expander for at least a solid 8 hours; during the day, though, I occasionally have to remove the expander to eat, floss, brush my teeth, etc., which gives my teeth an opportunity to relapse a bit. This suggests that at least a portion of the lateral expansion is due to teeth movement, rather than paletal growth (since it's unlikely that the palate would relapse so quickly). However, I am certain that some paletal growth has taken place, because of change #2, listed below.
2. A reddish-pinkish line of a tone different from the rest of my palate now overlays my maxillary suture. I believe that this is where a gap between the two halves of my palate is beginning to form, and new bone will be laid. The line varies a bit in color along its length - from red to very pale pink, and almost white. It also varies in width - starting from about 0.5mm or less at the front, and expanding to about 1mm at the center, through the back of the palate. These two observations suggest that some segments of this new separation are further along in the process. Also, the fact that the line is about 0.5mm near my incisors, and the diastema between those incisors is about 1mm suggests a ratio of 1:2 for paletal expansion vs teeth movement.
My large phone made it difficult for me to take a picture of my palate, so instead I drew an illustration of the line in question:
It's worth mentioning that I drew this about a week ago, and since then, the line appears to have grown marginally wider, but its reddish regions have turned paler. The change in color is possibly owed to more bone being laid to fill the gap, but that's just a guess.
3. When I bite down, my masseters appear much more pronounced than before. I'm confident in this, because I've been analyzing my jawline in the exact same fashion for a long time: while standing in front of a mirror, I will do a gentle duck face, and clench. I do it this way because my cheeks are so chubby (despite me being underweight) that they obscure the shape of my jawline. In fact, at rest, my lower third is oval and lacking in any angularity because of my facial fat. Anyway, when I would do the duck-face-and-clench routine in the past, I'd see my masseters flex, but they wouldn't cause the jawline to substantially change in shape - it would still remain oval, just slightly more angular. When I do this routine now, however, the flex of my masseters is pronounced enough that it temporarily gives my jawline an almost square appearance. I reason that this is a result of either 1) the occlusion of my teeth improving, allowing for more teeth to make contact when I form a bite, which in turn allows for a greater masseter response, 2) my mandible expanding laterally, or a combination of both of these possibilities. To be honest, I think that #1 is the most likely cause, since my jawline hasn't changed in shape when at rest (as far as I can tell), and I doubt that my mandible could noticeably expand in such a short period of time.
4. My chin appears marginally sharper. For context, the main reason for why it looked / looks retruded in the first place is because my bottom incisors protrude forward, pushing my lower lip out, and making the chin point appear further back than it actually is. Because the expander widened my palate, shifted my teeth, and changed my occlusion a little bit, my lower lip potentially doesn't stick out as much, and this maybe accounts for the minor improvement.
5. I can now fit my tongue a little more comfortably between my teeth.
Some Additional Observations
Despite the expansion of my upper dental arch, I have not seen much expansion in my lower dental arch. Maybe some expansion occurred there, but definitely not on par with the upper arch. To be honest, I'm not surprised by this. It stands to reason that when the upper arch begins expanding due to an improvement in oral posture, the entire body works together as one system to see through this change. When a device is used, however, only one mechanism induces the change - not a whole array of connected mechanisms as in the case of natural improvement - and so, those parts of the body that aren't being directly stimulated by that mechanism have a harder time catching up. All of this fits into my belief that expanders are limited in their efficacy, if they are not coupled with an improvement in oral posture. My hope is that my device will expand my upper arch enough that I'm able to keep my tongue up at all times, and that with time, this postural improvement will allow my lower arch to keep up. I think this is sound, considering that any expansion progress I've made in the past using the tongue alone occurred on upper and lower arches.
One worry I have is that the expander is slowly beginning to fit me less, the more that I turn its screw. For example, it no longer presses against the mid-line of my palate as tightly as it did before, and it rests slightly differently on each side (which is probably due to an asymmetry that I have).
My face on the whole looks subtly more "athletic", and there are more changes that I could name, but those listed above are the most noticeable improvements, and the ones that I chose to leave off are too minor to be certain of. I may talk about them in the future, if they become more pronounced, though.
I doubt a "chubby" face truly exists, babies get born with 15% body-fat, which is pretty fit and yet they have very chubby cheeks. I think if the face was more developed the skin would stretch out and there would be less fat.
The muscle you were trying to find out the name of is still the masseter, muscle can grow in different parts and masseter has two muscle heads.
I doubt a "chubby" face truly exists, babies get born with 15% body-fat, which is pretty fit and yet they have very chubby cheeks. I think if the face was more developed the skin would stretch out and there would be less fat.
Yes, this is what I meant, but I just called it "chubby" for brevity's sake, since the post was getting long enough.
The muscle you were trying to find out the name of is still the masseter, muscle can grow in different parts and masseter has two muscle heads.
Huh? There was never any confusion in my mind that the muscle in question was the masseter. That's what I referred to it as. If the wording in my post was unclear, I'm sorry.
I doubt a "chubby" face truly exists, babies get born with 15% body-fat, which is pretty fit and yet they have very chubby cheeks. I think if the face was more developed the skin would stretch out and there would be less fat.
Yes, this is what I meant, but I just called it "chubby" for brevity's sake, since the post was getting long enough.
The muscle you were trying to find out the name of is still the masseter, muscle can grow in different parts and masseter has two muscle heads.
Huh? There was never any confusion in my mind that the muscle in question was the masseter. That's what I referred to it as. If the wording in my post was unclear, I'm sorry.
No, you posted a picture with a green circle around a muscle you were trying to find the name of, correct? If so, that muscle is still the masseter, except it's the long head of the masseter that is behind the front shorter head. Search up pictures of masseter, you will find two separate heads.
It can also be the zygomandibularis, information on that muscle is limited.
@elwynn you said you have an incisor gap up after the palatal expansion and that your occlusion is improving.Has this made your bite less comfortable though?
you said you have an incisor gap up after the palatal expansion and that your occlusion is improving.Has this made your bite less comfortable though?
No, my bite feels just as comfortable as it did before these changes (or at least I haven't noticed any difference). The only relevant change in terms of comfort is my tongue fitting between my teeth a little more easily.
For some more context: while it has had a noticeable effect on the function of my masseters, I think that my occlusion changed only slightly. I suspect the reason that I'm able to flex the masseters more fully now is because some of my teeth are able to make better contact with each other. At the front, my bite seems more "firm" than before. At the back, there's still a lack of contact between some of my molars, but that gap seems to have diminished. I think that these changes were accomplished by very minimal palatal growth, so I'm excited to see what can be achieved with substantial palatal expansion.
You also said that the gap of your incisor changes through the day.Do you know whether or not this gap will be permanent once you finish your palatal expansion ?
Since part of the expansion is due to teeth movement, and another part due to palatal expansion, I expect that I'll only maintain the widening achieved by actual palatal expansion (assuming that I succeed in maintaining a good oral posture afterwards); and I'll probably lose much of the teeth movement that has occurred as a result of wearing the expander. Now, if this were the only process at play, then my diastema would probably stay, because the front teeth would remain separated by the new growth at the suture. However, it probably won't end with that. I expect that once I stop wearing the expander, my teeth will go through another round of movement, in order to adjust to the expanded palate. At that point, the diastema should disappear. The only reason why my teeth haven't been readjusting to the palatal expansion as it carries on - which would minimize or even prevent a diastema from forming - is because the retainer holds the teeth on each side in place, in relation to each other. Yes, the two halves of the arch can move apart width-wise, but the expander prevents any gaps from forming between individual teeth, except for the upper, front incisors, since that's from where the device pushes. I hope this makes sense.
In short, I expect the diastema to disappear with time, after I stop wearing the expander.
Just a thought: 8 hours of mewing during sleep is not equivalent to 8 hours of mewing during the day. While using the expander, I have observed that more teeth and palatal movement occurs during sleep, than during my waking hours, even within the same time frames. I know this, because my diastema is always the widest right as I wake up. After taking the device off to eat breakfast, drink coffee, and brush my teeth, the gap between my front incisors shrinks slightly. However, when I put the device back in, the diastema does not return to its morning size, even if I go a solid 8 hours or longer without removing the expander. It's only by next morning that the gap will widen to its new maximum. The point is that mewing during the night is more productive than mewing during the day - possibly because growth and movement are more accessible while asleep. This has probably been discussed before on this forum, but it's interesting to experience this phenomenon yourself.
I suspect that people's inability to mew during sleep is one of the main reasons for why so few achieve progress (though of course there are other important factors as well).
Yes, I have teeth in light contact during the day, most of the time. It feels most comfortable, and it's difficult for me to maintain a suction hold with my teeth apart. When I'm intently focused on something, or asleep, my jaw relaxes to the point that my bite loosens a little, but I try not to allow my teeth to move apart far enough that my mouth opens.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I avoid clenching too. If you're gonna keep your teeth in contact, it should be light.
