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How much difference do milimetres of growth make

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Posts: 13
Topic starter

I'm starting the DNA Appliance treatment in a couple weeks. My current IMW is about 39.7, my doctor says we only really need to get it to around 42 maybe just a tad bigger.

The main part of my treatment will be using an aggressive BOW Facemask from Forwardontics

Pretty much most of my face is good besides a severely recessed maxilla (lol), class 3 malocclusion despite my front incisors being in front of my bottom incisors (heavy compensation from orthodontic work) and my left jaw slightly being out of place.

With the BOW facemask, we can achieve 7mm of forward protraction within a year compared to only 3mm with a traditional facemask.

My estimated time of treatment is about 1.5 years, which will lead to roughly 3-4mm of transversal expansion and about 10mm of forward protraction.

Do these millimeter increases actually make that much of a difference in the appearance of your face? I've read around on this forum that yes, it's underestimated how much of a difference a few millimeters can make on your facial aesthetics but the small magnitude of the measurements make me skeptical. Any of you have any insights on this?


Posted : 15/10/2020 10:15 pm
Posts: 106

There's a saying, that regarding movement of facial bones, "millimeters are miles"

Posted : 15/10/2020 10:42 pm
Posts: 2

10mm is huge

how old are you

Posted : 16/10/2020 2:35 pm
Posts: 13
Topic starter

@thethirdhit 23 my friend. I should also note, my provider didn't say 7mm-10mm expansion is the goal, it's more based on my symptoms (poor nasal breathing etc...). However, I would absolutely welcome as much aesthetic benefit as possible :)))

Posted : 16/10/2020 9:52 pm
Posts: 8

7mm of forward protraction is quite big, especially if achieved in a non surgical way - my friend had jaw surgery to bring the top jaw forward 8mm and the difference was substantial. 

I’ve been offered the Facemask and like told you can expect 2 - 3 mm of forward protraction if I were to wear it 16 hours a day for 6 months minimum. However I’d like to have more forward growth as this is my main problem, so I may look into this appliance instead! 

Posted : 17/10/2020 5:30 am
Posts: 277

@cassavafiend Who is your Vivos DNA provider, if you don’t mind my asking?  You can DM the name to me if you’d rather not mention it here.  We have a patient in a FB group for this stuff that was looking for a larger reverse-pull option ... I didn’t think anyone was doing anything other than regular face mask.   

And yes, in terms of gains those are quite big numbers if possible.  Ladies who get “filler” injections for their cheeks usually only get a couple millimeters worth of material, if I remember correctly.  And an oral/maxillofacial surgeon said that to cure sleep apnea they typically need 8mm, but there’s always some degree of relapse so they usually do 10.

Posted : 19/10/2020 1:47 am
Posts: 187

How are you going to protract 10mm forward at 23? Isn't that pretty much impossible?

If you're actually serious about you're treatment you should consider posting pictures here as u'd probably be the first case people would see with that much forward growth. Im skeptical ull achieve anything more thn 3 or 4mm.

Posted : 19/10/2020 4:19 am
Posts: 13
Topic starter



Yeah maybe try this out I believe you can order this yourself no problem directly from the manufacturer.


I was told the same, if you wear facemask for like 12+ hours a day you can expect 2-3mm forward growth in a year. With the BOW device, due to the anchorage it is significantly more powerful. Who knows though I guess I'll find out in a years time!

Posted : 19/10/2020 4:31 pm
greyham and greyham reacted
Posts: 13
Topic starter



Yeah I don't mind giving the name, it's Dr. Inoue-Cheng in Oakville, Ontario. She's one of only 2 Vivos providers in the province, no idea where you guys are located though. She's awesome if I have to add.


I honestly have no idea the genuine efficacy of the BOW facemask, to me it makes sense why it would be able to deliver more growth as the pull/angle seem a lot more powerful but 7mm seems like a crazy high amount of growth in 1 year for an adult. Again, I'll be able to give you guys an accurate assessment in a year.

Posted : 19/10/2020 4:34 pm
Posts: 13
Topic starter



I'm actually debating whether or not to post pics. My only hesitation is that I have a career where my image will be highly publicized in my industry (I will also be making low-mid six figures so don't wanna ruin that lol) but tbh showing people what's possible starting treatment at the age of 23 is a bigger cause than me as an individual and could inspire hope. Can also inspire a total revamp of traditional orthodontics but we'll see when the time comes.

Again, 7mm does sound like a lot and I'm not sure if it's doable as the Vivos provider even said we're in somewhat experimental territory with the new facemask. I'm confident it'll be stronger than the regular facemask though, I'll be taking Vitamin K2, eating lots of beef liver (extremely high vitamin A), supplementing with D3 and considering taking MK-677 for increased bone density to maximize results or speed up treatment time.

Posted : 19/10/2020 4:42 pm
greyham and greyham reacted
Posts: 62

@cassavafiend Please keep us updated! I'm really intrigued by the route you're taking with this treatment as I've never heard of it. Just to confirm, are you hooking up the facebow to the DNA?

Posted : 21/10/2020 10:44 pm
Posts: 13
Topic starter



You got it! Will be attaching the BOW to the DNA appliance and will try to wear it for roughly 12-14 hours a day for a year. It's too bad I'll have to wait so long to update you guys whether or not I see a lot of progress but I'm hopeful :))

Posted : 22/10/2020 10:59 am
Posts: 59


I'm about to start the same thing with my mRNA, as soon as I can work out how to get Forwardontics to ship a Bow to me here in Australia.

Note that this isn't a standard Vivos thing to do, so you unless your dentist is enlightened, you need to ask them to have the DNA appliance fabricated with the hooks for the elastics that attach to the facemask.

Let us know how you go @cassavafiend!

Posted : 22/10/2020 5:45 pm
cliffbars, cassavafiend, cliffbars and 1 people reacted
Posts: 277
Posted by: @cassavafiend

7mm seems like a crazy high amount of growth in 1 year for an adult.

I just had a consult with Dr. Liao yesterday, and he was probably one of the earliest to start using regular facemask along with DNA.  He told me that with very good wear time for FM (getting to almost 100% of DNA wear time) that he can typically expect to see +5mm on the maxilla in 15 months.  So a few more mm's in a few less months with the greater strength (I assume) of the bow ... seems plausible.

Posted : 22/10/2020 6:53 pm
Posts: 1

@cassavafiend I'm curious to know how it's going.  I'm also 23, recessed maxilla, looking to start vivos plus facemask to get forward growth.  Was your dentist able to provide evidence/testimonials that you can achieve 7 mm forward growth?  How has it worked for you so far?

Posted : 24/12/2021 9:03 pm
Posts: 14

Nothing it's about the centimeters and you gain 1mm a day mewing so you see a small change every 3 weeks because every 3mm the sutures lock for a week and by the 3rd week you see 9mm or almost 1cm of change and then you mire the difference until your maxilla reaches neutral and you are no longer recessed, then mewing stops working

Posted : 30/12/2021 5:32 pm
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