Societal Implications of Craniofacial Dystrophy: Lookism, Attraction, and Gender Relations

Most (or at least a lot) males on this site are seeking a fix for their flat undefined faces, since they look not masculine enough

Nowadays a guy with a 90-100 Degree square jaw and chin along with prominent sharp cheekbones gets called "genetically blessed", but in reality he isnt genetically blessed, he just Looks like a human male should look originally.

Because of our modern feminization of Society through Estrogens in tap water, soft Food and anti fat and meat Propaganda we are becoming way and way more feminized over the time.

Especially Estrogen is a main cause of the feminization of the modern male, Estrogen prevents the growth of facial bones, makes the eyes and lips bigger and stores subcutaneos fat

It is optimal for women, since it makes them appear more cute and Young, but for men it is literally the worst Thing you can have, since it makes you look childish, undefined, bloated, feminine and automatically not attractive (in most cases)

Only a few man have such top masculine genetics which can potentially overcompensate a bad development in a feminized Environment, These men are often the ones who get called "Chads" by redpill and blackpill members

It also seems that modern are getting more masculine over time, their height becomes taller and their shoulders are becoming broader

Everytime i go out in my City i see quite a lot of females with Broad square jaws but only a few men with it

I think in the Long term, this will have very bad consequenses for men and women, you often hear About the 20/80 Dating hierarchy that only a few men get the most Attention of women, well i think in the future (if not already yet) this will become the truth since there will be only a few men with typical masculine facial dimorphism.

A lot of guys will say now that Beauty is something which can be seen in a individualistic way, but in reality it isnt like that, the human DNA never changed since the beginning of mankind, women are still attracted to Broad angular masculine faces and you cant blame them for that since it's written in their DNA Code just like a male likes youthful feminine cute faces.

What we perceive as Beauty hasnt changed, but we have changed (and not in a positive way) and thats the point

Things like a angular jaw are universally attractive

I can suggest every Young male on this Forum to get his Hormones checked, Estrogen Inhibitors or even a TRT can be life changing for a guy with to high estrogenand low testosterone0

Good post.  Agree.

Man plz.Lookism has destroyed you.Testosterone has little to no effect on maxilla position.you can have square face and still be low testosterone.All these theories are not scientifically proven.0.91 digit ratio here.I lift eat healthy and i have free testosterone of 269pg/ml and 26.9 ng/dl.above the range of 45-2450 and 9-25 respectivelly.I yeqr ago i had one of the worst jawlines in my higjschool.Now with mewing my profile is very decent but i never had low testosterone.Estrogen has no effect pn your face other than fat.With your logic models have more testostosterone that bar brothers like lazar novovic

Nobody with two eyes and logic would ever think "cuteness" offers a man a disadvantage in the sexual market 

Proof:

?w=338&h=450

The 3 examples above show highly estrogenic faces that are considered very attractive despite their femininity/neoteny. 

Posted by: Dimitrelos300

Man plz.Lookism has destroyed you.Testosterone has little to no effect on maxilla position.you can have square face and still be low testosterone.All these theories are not scientifically proven.0.91 digit ratio here.I lift eat healthy and i have free testosterone of 269pg/ml and 26.9 ng/dl.above the range of 45-2450 and 9-25 respectivelly.I yeqr ago i had one of the worst jawlines in my higjschool.Now with mewing my profile is very decent but i never had low testosterone.Estrogen has no effect pn your face other than fat.With your logic models have more testostosterone that bar brothers like lazar novovic

Models don't have very high T features. Nowadays they look quite androgynous . 

Oh dear I can see this turning into one of those Lookism threads where everyone's posting examples of males models and saying "What about THIS, does THIS look feminine to you? Look at his gonial angle/lower third/ogee curve/eye support/insert Lookism buzz phrase here"  🤣 

Admin checking in;

This will be the ONLY thread where social implications of craniofacial issues and lookism in general is allowed to be discussed. The discussion in this thread stays only in this thread, and all discussion is to be done with absolute tact and kindness.

Consider all your posts twice before posting them in this thread. Report anything that you would like reviewed and we will look into it.

I see no major issues with the content of this thread so far. Please keep it that way.

@eddiemoney

Please do not call anyone low t or make any comments that could be interpreted as a personal insult

Posted by: EddieMoney

Nobody with two eyes and logic would ever think "cuteness" offers a man a disadvantage in the sexual market 

Proof:

?w=338&h=450

The 3 examples above show highly estrogenic faces that are considered very attractive despite their femininity/neoteny. 

 

Leonardo and Barret have both EXTREME masculine dimorphism, they look cute because of the way they Dress, their hairstyle etc, their bone structure and facial width to height Ratio is VERY masculine

Good orbital/cheekbone support and jaw width are 2 Things which can be almost directly correlated with high testosterone or at least high prenatal testosterone

By the way: This is how a true estrogenic-low testosterone face Looks like  https://imgur.com/CInPCMl

(the Person on the photo even admitted it that his hormoneal profile is horrible)

Posted by: Zygos

Posted by: EddieMoney

Nobody with two eyes and logic would ever think "cuteness" offers a man a disadvantage in the sexual market 

Proof:

?w=338&h=450

The 3 examples above show highly estrogenic faces that are considered very attractive despite their femininity/neoteny. 

 

Leonardo and Barret have both EXTREME masculine dimorphism, they look cute because of the way they Dress, their hairstyle etc, their bone structure and facial width to height Ratio is VERY masculine

Good orbital/cheekbone support and jaw width are 2 Things which can be almost directly correlated with high testosterone or at least high prenatal testosterone

 

By the way: This is how a true estrogenic-low testosterone face Looks like  https://imgur.com/CInPCMl

(the Person on the photo even admitted it that his hormoneal profile is horrible)

You don't seem to understand dimorphic qualities well . A neotenous face by default is not very masculine. Features like a small mouth and full lips are feminine. Leonardo and Jordan have neotenous qualities. An extreme masculine face would be something like this  

Note the coarseness of the features. Tall face. Neither Jordan nor Leo have tall faces. The nose on this man is long. Neither Leo nor Leonardo have a long nose. The lower third is easily the longest third of the face as well whereas Jordan and Leo have their thirds more balanced. This man has a long philtrum, and they have short ones. High prenatal T creates a long philtrum. This man has thin lips. They have full ones. His face is overall rectangular with hard lines. Theirs is more round and heart shaped which are more feminine.

In short, proportions determine masculinity and their masculine proportions are not super emphasized. 

Besides, posting a picture of eggman as proof that facial feminization is somehow to blame for his unattractive face is really irresponsible. Because many high T faces are also ugly and ape like. In fact, men with feminine faces are quite popular:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1380265/Men-feminine-faces-likely-hit-women.html

Besides, if facial femininity was so bad for men, boy band legends and K pop stars would not have such loyal female fans. For example young Justin Bieber was very neotenous (still is) and no teenage girl complained. 

Jordan Barrett's profile even shows how compared to a woman there are more similarities than not. His philtrum is even shorter. That in and of itself is a tell tale sign of less prenatal T. That pouty upper lip that is upturned is not high T. 

Goes to show facial attractiveness is more than just how high T you look. You also need to realize the presence of high T traits don't  preclude the presence of other girly ones. Most  have a mix of features. Turns out Jordan and Leo happen  to have a high amount of facial neoteny even  with some high T features. 

Besides man, have you stepped outside? Most people would agree that Jordan Barrett at least looks androgynous if not overall feminine. 

Contrast that with:

Not even a fair comparison

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: Zygos

Posted by: EddieMoney

Nobody with two eyes and logic would ever think "cuteness" offers a man a disadvantage in the sexual market 

Proof:

?w=338&h=450

The 3 examples above show highly estrogenic faces that are considered very attractive despite their femininity/neoteny. 

 

Leonardo and Barret have both EXTREME masculine dimorphism, they look cute because of the way they Dress, their hairstyle etc, their bone structure and facial width to height Ratio is VERY masculine

Good orbital/cheekbone support and jaw width are 2 Things which can be almost directly correlated with high testosterone or at least high prenatal testosterone

 

By the way: This is how a true estrogenic-low testosterone face Looks like  https://imgur.com/CInPCMl

(the Person on the photo even admitted it that his hormoneal profile is horrible)

You don't seem to understand dimorphic qualities well . A neotenous face by default is not very masculine. Features like a small mouth and full lips are feminine. Leonardo and Jordan have neotenous qualities. An extreme masculine face would be something like this  

Note the coarseness of the features. Tall face. Neither Jordan nor Leo have tall faces. The nose on this man is long. Neither Leo nor Leonardo have a long nose. The lower third is easily the longest third of the face as well whereas Jordan and Leo have their thirds more balanced. This man has a long philtrum, and they have short ones. High prenatal T creates a long philtrum. This man has thin lips. They have full ones. His face is overall rectangular with hard lines. Theirs is more round and heart shaped which are more feminine.

In short, proportions determine masculinity and their masculine proportions are not super emphasized. 

Besides, posting a picture of eggman as proof that facial feminization is somehow to blame for his unattractive face is really irresponsible. Because many high T faces are also ugly and ape like. In fact, men with feminine faces are quite popular:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1380265/Men-feminine-faces-likely-hit-women.html

Besides, if facial femininity was so bad for men, boy band legends and K pop stars would not have such loyal female fans. For example young Justin Bieber was very neotenous (still is) and no teenage girl complained. 

Jordan Barrett's profile even shows how compared to a woman there are more similarities than not. His philtrum is even shorter. That in and of itself is a tell tale sign of less prenatal T. That pouty upper lip that is upturned is not high T. 

Goes to show facial attractiveness is more than just how high T you look. You also need to realize the presence of high T traits don't  preclude the presence of other girly ones. Most  have a mix of features. Turns out Jordan and Leo happen  to have a high amount of facial neoteny even  with some high T features. 

Besides man, have you stepped outside? Most people would agree that Jordan Barrett at least looks androgynous if not overall feminine. 

Contrast that with:

Not even a fair comparison

 

Tall face is NOT masculine, testosterone creates a stunted short midface along with a wide facial width

Posted by: Zygos

Posted by: EddieMoney

Nobody with two eyes and logic would ever think "cuteness" offers a man a disadvantage in the sexual market 

Proof:

?w=338&h=450

The 3 examples above show highly estrogenic faces that are considered very attractive despite their femininity/neoteny. 

 

Leonardo and Barret have both EXTREME masculine dimorphism, they look cute because of the way they Dress, their hairstyle etc, their bone structure and facial width to height Ratio is VERY masculine

Good orbital/cheekbone support and jaw width are 2 Things which can be almost directly correlated with high testosterone or at least high prenatal testosterone

 

By the way: This is how a true estrogenic-low testosterone face Looks like  https://imgur.com/CInPCMl

(the Person on the photo even admitted it that his hormoneal profile is horrible)

I see that photo of "eggman" posted here and there and so I looked him up and he generally doesn't look anywhere near as bad as he looks in that photo. I think that's a really, really bad photo, lol. I mean he's not GL or anything but it's like that photo has been engineered to make him look as bad as possible. 

Posted by: Zygos

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: Zygos

Posted by: EddieMoney

Nobody with two eyes and logic would ever think "cuteness" offers a man a disadvantage in the sexual market 

Proof:

?w=338&h=450

The 3 examples above show highly estrogenic faces that are considered very attractive despite their femininity/neoteny. 

 

Leonardo and Barret have both EXTREME masculine dimorphism, they look cute because of the way they Dress, their hairstyle etc, their bone structure and facial width to height Ratio is VERY masculine

Good orbital/cheekbone support and jaw width are 2 Things which can be almost directly correlated with high testosterone or at least high prenatal testosterone

 

By the way: This is how a true estrogenic-low testosterone face Looks like  https://imgur.com/CInPCMl

(the Person on the photo even admitted it that his hormoneal profile is horrible)

You don't seem to understand dimorphic qualities well . A neotenous face by default is not very masculine. Features like a small mouth and full lips are feminine. Leonardo and Jordan have neotenous qualities. An extreme masculine face would be something like this  

Note the coarseness of the features. Tall face. Neither Jordan nor Leo have tall faces. The nose on this man is long. Neither Leo nor Leonardo have a long nose. The lower third is easily the longest third of the face as well whereas Jordan and Leo have their thirds more balanced. This man has a long philtrum, and they have short ones. High prenatal T creates a long philtrum. This man has thin lips. They have full ones. His face is overall rectangular with hard lines. Theirs is more round and heart shaped which are more feminine.

In short, proportions determine masculinity and their masculine proportions are not super emphasized. 

Besides, posting a picture of eggman as proof that facial feminization is somehow to blame for his unattractive face is really irresponsible. Because many high T faces are also ugly and ape like. In fact, men with feminine faces are quite popular:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1380265/Men-feminine-faces-likely-hit-women.html

Besides, if facial femininity was so bad for men, boy band legends and K pop stars would not have such loyal female fans. For example young Justin Bieber was very neotenous (still is) and no teenage girl complained. 

Jordan Barrett's profile even shows how compared to a woman there are more similarities than not. His philtrum is even shorter. That in and of itself is a tell tale sign of less prenatal T. That pouty upper lip that is upturned is not high T. 

Goes to show facial attractiveness is more than just how high T you look. You also need to realize the presence of high T traits don't  preclude the presence of other girly ones. Most  have a mix of features. Turns out Jordan and Leo happen  to have a high amount of facial neoteny even  with some high T features. 

Besides man, have you stepped outside? Most people would agree that Jordan Barrett at least looks androgynous if not overall feminine. 

Contrast that with:

Not even a fair comparison

 

Tall face is NOT masculine, testosterone creates a stunted short midface along with a wide facial width

Level the eyes. The eyes not being distorts your perception . The fact you missed that small detail means you see what you want to see or are just oblivious. 

Tall face = longer lower third than your other thirds. Leo and Jordan do not have this very emphasized. The men on the left all have their lower third equal to their middle third. Just like Leo and Jordan. Your own pics prove my point. Please pay attention to proportions not overall shape which is meaningless.   

My opinion on this one : 

the feminization of man begun recently and it all promotes that prepubescent looking face guys are attractive while the reality is different.

On what planet do you live may I ask ? why do we buy into this thing ?

Males need to look maleish not feminised homohipsters that lack T. How can you say such insane things like wrinkles / NL folds are a turn off for women when they actually make you look wilder ?

 Women love aggresive looks. Aggressive = stronger, better, the hunter.

Won sexiest man alive title few times :

Look at dem foken wrinklez boyo !

Was Sean Connery ever considered unnatractive ?

Ever looked at Connor Mcgregor's face ? 

Is he that beta unnatractive boyo ? Really ? 

Tell you when boys starting wearing fillers ? when homo was cool. When big pharma & filler/botox industry hit the market, internet and youtube. 🙂

Think of it. Few of those are sexiest men awarded. Few of those would look girly without nasolabial folds. I doubt this is cope. Maybe girls under 18 want pale soft looking faces, but I doubt that 18 - 20 girls would chose a soft milk instead of those males presented above.

Who`s coping here ? Use common sense. Why would a girl chose someone who looks way more low Testo like Justin Bieber instead of fukin with Chris Hemsworth ?

Why ? because he looks way more Alpha / Male / Masculine / Wild

Now you see the flaws of your beliefs ? It's absolutely wrong believing that girls would pick the soft kiddy looking guy over the wild masculine dude in the flock. That`s why I don`t buy the theory of "biuttiuful skin and youuuung face" 

Who the hell would choose a girly man instead of a masculine man for sex ? You are way off-track with WRINKLES 

MASCULINITY increases the aggresive look. The more masculine you look, the more Alpha you look. 

Why do you think that Marvel's last creation , the most bad - as character in the world , looks like this ?

Because this is how ultra-male-alpha-dominance looks are perceived.

Extra masculine and almost animalic. This is what female animal instinct craves for. And you can't deny it.

biuutyifull 
biuutyifull 

Meet Travis Fimmel. Voted for sexiest man alive couple times.

Wrinkles ? Tear duct troughs ? Nasolabial folds ?

This guy would literally own 2 cities without lifting a finger.

GIRLS LOVE WILD MASCULINE FACES

I'm genuinely asking these questions, so I can understand better.

What society are we talking about?

What would this society behave like in its ideal state?

How is this society behaving currently?

How exactly will society be ruined? And what does a ruined society look and act like?

I am trigger from what you wrote.Where this midface joke came from?Lookism xd.The forum where people believe models have higher testosterone than a people with great physique.Short midface is a feminim trait.I have seen many man with poufy cheecks and short midface.It depends fron oral posture.Actually testosterone lenghten the face.Almost all masculine men i see with low digit ratios have medium to tall midface with great face weidth(broad zygos).

"I am trigger". LOL

Best to focus only on yourself. I can totally get where you're coming from but a person can drive himself to ruin simply by focusing too much on the state of the world around him.

I was devastated not only when I realized what I lost from infant circumcision, but by the extraction of all 4 of my wisdom teeth. There were many negative facial changes just from that. So on top of not being able to have the sexual sensation that was my birthright, I also was stripped of the more masculine features of my face by having teeth extracted that didn't need to be.

Anyway, I've done a lot of work through the depression over both of those things for years now. I did some mild "foreskin restoration" which I noticed a plethora of benefits from, and since discovering Mew's work well over 5 or 6 years ago I am finally starting to practice it. I just had an "aha" moment today with the suction hold: simply using suction to get my tongue into the proper position. Now I feel for the first time I'm understanding what "Mewing" or "proper oral posture" really is.

And I have hope. Even just marginal improvements, I would be very happy with.

I got so depressed over my own small individual life, and all the things that've happened to me, I'd go totally nuts and probably kill myself if I flooded my head with thoughts about how messed up the rest of the world and society is.

Leaving that for the birds and filling your day with as many healthy habits as you can is the way to go. What's done is done...we weren't raised with proper oral posture, among many, many other things we weren't raised with that would've put us in a better position today.

Best we can do, and the only thing we can do, is make changes starting today, and maintain those changes for the rest of our lives, to our own benefit.

Masculinity in general seems to be heavily under assault. The question is how YOU, as an individual, are going to make yourself more masculine, if that's the path you want to take.

Whatever the rest of the world is doing simply evaporates when you take on that mentality.

Check out the last paragraph here:

https://drgominak.com/2018/11/18/repair-and-development-only-happen-during-deep-sleep/

Good posture is good and it will certainly improve your face and maybe your health.

HOWEVER plz dont listen everything you read about it on internet.Dont listen every redpill forums or idk what.I suggest doing what mike mew have said or even only a strong attempt to improve lip seal will bring great results(read my previous posts)

ALSO, there are some youtubers about mewing that spread misinformation in order to attract the so called incels and manipulate them.Thats bad.One toxic youtuber i came across was called facehacking.This youtuber strongly believes that attraction is affected only by the maxilla.And this is wrong.People who believe this are just stupid or they want to blame their posture for their unability to get l.Anyway i believe that genetics play an important role and everyone is different and has sth attractive on his/her appearance.Beauty is relative and is depended on a lot of factors.It is stupid to say that sth is everything.Only these b* at lookism say these to spread their unsecurities.Dont go to these types of forums.Anyaway the thing i want to say is people should relax about posture and maxiila and that beauty is a mix of everything

On your appearance contributes:

1)your genetics,skin quality,health

2)Epigenetics,how you are developing

3)prenatal and adult hormones

Testosterone and estrogen in girls,digit ratio

And of cource maxiila as anyone mention here play a huge roll but i think that an average developed face can be the same or more attractive than a decent developed one if it contains better genetics or hormones.It is stupid insecure people like facehacking doubt sscientific studies

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9yDromv7fzprJv9G8

A photo of a reply about dr mew.Even he has said that other factors play role

To summ up dont assume yourself ugly because you dont have the best proper development or even worse a person with a better posture will always preffered by girls.

THESE ARE EXXAGERATED TYPE OF THINGS COMING FROM THE TOXIC BLACKPILL.

AS i said everything is relative.

Thats what i wanted to write so some people here stopped feeling ugly and j want to help other people.

Lol

Dude.  That guy is a wierdo.  Many people are wierdos.  Well... I'm actually getting ready to practice my speech.  It is entitled, "How to cure obesity."  Ready for my Nobel prize.  Yep, I said it.  Orthodontics is making us fat.  Going big and wide on the maxilla is like being attracted to someone with big boobs and hips.  Propegation of the species.  The big/wide maxilla means that you are eating a lot.  So... when we have our crappy diets of cheetos and soda... our messed up arches are PROTECTING us from getting too fat.  Yep... they are protecting us.  How so?  Not entirely sure yet..  And truth be told... it's a CORRELATION not necessarily causation.  Maybe all the old fat people with big maxillas just ate a lot.  Maybe, though, our orthodontic treatments are giving us obesity.  Yet to be determined.  Please GIVE "DARKINDIGO" FULL CREDIT FOR SHARING ANY OF THIS.  DON'T STEAL MY IDEAS YOU LAZY SCMUCKS.  lol

Yes - I moved my maxilla forward on my own (not Mewing).  Yes, I'm now I'm planning on narrowing it.

Beauty, attraction, and social stuff are complex topics and there is generally more to it. I think their better of not being discussed here, as its what promotes healthy discussion rather than "redpill" and "incel" stuff that has ruined so many other forums and made it impossible to talk about on topic stuff on those forums.

Many top face, figure and runway models never had orthodontics.  Just stating the facts.

I sat and watched people... old people... and I noticed a few things.. Basically, a larger visible maxillary perimeter was associated with people being fat!  I have been skinny-fat myself... skinny, but not really muscular... my mandible was not that forward and my maxilla not that forward.  Truth be told... I have NOT picked up patterns in younger age groups.  Anyway.. I think people need to rethink the maxilla.  Would it be worth moving your maxilla forward/broader if you found out you'd gain an extra 50 lbs?  These are the types of questions I'd like answered.

One thing I've noticed frequently on mewing forums, is that many people claim that the main aesthetic gains from mewing relate to the area of the eyes, which is my biggest flaw; I have a very prominent eyebrow arch so I have very hollow eyes, but I also have the upper eyelids too visible, which give me an idiotic look. I add that I am very thin, I have a fairly unregulated diet, I use a lot of smartphones and PCs, I fall asleep late and I do not sleep very well, all things that do not help my eyes, but it is as if they were too low compared to the eyebrow arch. Surely it is the fault of the CFD, as I have a malocclusion of class two, but I wonder if mewing can at least improve the situation a bit, for example by pushing the eyes higher, or increasing the under eye support.

Maybe all the men on this thread would benefit from asking the women on this forum what they find attractive, and on what basis they select their partners. 

I personally tend to be attracted to men that look a lot like Adrien Brody--strong brow, strong jaw, but an exceptionally long midface, high narrow cheekbones and full lips. I am a dead ringer for this look. It can stop me on the street every time.

However, your ultra masculine, 'animalic' looks quoted above are repellent to me in the extreme. The Rock not attractive, Chris Hemsworth is not attractive, the dude in the Viking suit and the superhero are definitely NOT attractive. But female tastes vary a lot. One of my friends likes short, 'pretty' men with wide spaced eyes and short faces. Another likes men with broad flat faces, short noses, and small eyes, that honestly like a developmentally disabled person to me. (That friend thinks that the guys I like look like serial killers. We are still friends.)

But the real point here is that women are actually much more likely to men to select partners on the basis of something *other than looks*. This has already been very firmly established in research elsewhere. Yes, women would like a partner they are sexually attracted to, BUT they often prioritize other things they value more (and that's true in affairs and other relationships not based on trading sex for security. However, guys in long term relationships have more sex than single guys, so if sex is the goal, then flings and affairs are still not the most reliable way to get it anyway).

What's an example? Women most often cite a sense of humor as the thing that attracted them to their partner. Intelligence is another commonly mentioned one. 

So. 

I suggest you talk to women about what women want. And then pool your findings, and proceed from there.

@Elevee What you say is very interesting, but I think we all know here that beauty and sexual attraction do not go hand in hand.

That said, it is true that to some extent every woman has different tastes, but it is also true that millions of women are attracted to the same men, such as David Beckham, Johnny Depp, Jensen Ackles etc...

Right.

It is also true that there are millions of women who would turn down an actual real live David Beckham because he is TOO attractive. The handsomest man I know is turned down regularly by women because he is too hot--they wouldn't feel comfortable with a man who they feel is out of their league and who must surely be comparing to them to the other, more beautiful women that they believe he could be sleeping with instead. 

I only know one women who prefers the Viking-gym rat type mentioned above, and she prefers them only in theory--the man she was married to for 16 years, divorced, but still cheats on all her boyfriends with, is a man of medium stature with a heart-shaped face and pretty brown eyes.

What I'm suggesting is, the reasons that actual women select actual men--the women who may select you and therefore are what you should be interested in, select men for a variety of reasons. Even the type of man they think 'beautiful', or the ones they are purely sexually attracted to, vary a LOT, and for the weirdest reasons. Getting to know your local woman is the best way to find out more.

By all means, develop your face in a healthy way. Achieve good sleep, good digestion, clear skin, upright carriage and a healthy white smile. Those things will always be attractive. But these in-depth discussions about gonial angles and ramial lengths and which kind of them women prefer and how much, is a pissing contest between men on the internet that has very little to do with actual women. If you want to know what women like, ask women. Chances are they can tell you exactly why they picked the men they have, and the answers might surprise you.

Posted by: elevee

Right.

It is also true that there are millions of women who would turn down an actual real live David Beckham because he is TOO attractive. The handsomest man I know is turned down regularly by women because he is too hot--they wouldn't feel comfortable with a man who they feel is out of their league and who must surely be comparing to them to the other, more beautiful women that they believe he could be sleeping with instead. 

I only know one women who prefers the Viking-gym rat type mentioned above, and she prefers them only in theory--the man she was married to for 16 years, divorced, but still cheats on all her boyfriends with, is a man of medium stature with a heart-shaped face and pretty brown eyes.

What I'm suggesting is, the reasons that actual women select actual men--the women who may select you and therefore are what you should be interested in, select men for a variety of reasons. Even the type of man they think 'beautiful', or the ones they are purely sexually attracted to, vary a LOT, and for the weirdest reasons. Getting to know your local woman is the best way to find out more.

By all means, develop your face in a healthy way. Achieve good sleep, good digestion, clear skin, upright carriage and a healthy white smile. Those things will always be attractive. But these in-depth discussions about gonial angles and ramial lengths and which kind of them women prefer and how much, is a pissing contest between men on the internet that has very little to do with actual women. If you want to know what women like, ask women. Chances are they can tell you exactly why they picked the men they have, and the answers might surprise you.

So true. It's sad to read the kids on sites like Lookism perpetuating these stupid "formulas" to determine how well a man is going to do with the opposite sex. They have a list of "undesirable" features to which they frequently add the term "is death" in order to condemn people who have them to a life of misery. You'll see "exposed eyelids = death" and "negative canthal tilt = death" and "just lol if your ramus is shorter than your ear" over and over in their posts. If you get them to admit that women are interested in other qualities beside these "slayer" skull traits, the only other trait they'll accept as attractive is money. So you can either "looksmax" or "moneymax" but if your looksmaxing goals deviate from their narrow formulas then you're wasting your time and might as well commit suicide (it really is a toxic community). 

@Elevee The thing that intrigues me is to see the determination of those guys, willing to spend a lot of money to improve aesthetically through cosmetic surgery.

I have always wanted to know what women think of a man who has become attractive through aesthetic interventions, such as blepharoplasty, rhinoplasty or genioplasty. Of course, they become more aesthetically pleasing, but would women appreciate it? I'm just talking about aesthetics, not personality.

Honestly, for most women, when considering desirability of men, personality and aesthetics are not separable. In other words, women are sincerely not attracted to men, no matter what he looks like, if he is an asshole.

Maybe this is a way that men are different from women? But across the board, among women I know, they cannot and will not get involved with a man whose personality is a turnoff. They say things like, "Nope. Not attractive to me. I mean I can kinda see in a clinical way that he's attractive, but not in a hundred years would I let him touch me. No way."

Also, among women I know, lack of vanity and self-consciousness is a very attractive feature in men. Men who are busy doing things they are passionate about are attractive to women. Men who sit around talking about their weightlifting stats or working on their skincare routine are not, generally. A man who stands up straight, wears a clean shirt and puts on a pair of nice shoes for a date--those are good traits because they indicate health and self respect. But self absorption is generally repellent to women I know. And almost by definition cosmetic surgery (ie not to fix a functional problem like a harelip or severe scarring) is indicative of self absorption.

So overall I think the things to remember are: Get  healthy, as in baseline, functional-human healthy.  Treat yourself and everybody else with courtesy and respect. Talk to real women often. Get busy doing things you love, and don't take yourself too seriously. Those are the things that women looooove.

@fred LMAOOOOO

This ended as unstructual rant, this might not be an easy read. Proceed with open mind. Admin can freely remove this since there is no 100% focus on CFD.

I am late to this discussion. It's intended to be CFD impact on looks and attraction however i can't focus myself only on phyisical traits.

I will try to give brief explenation of human attraction. Specifically what "women" want and what signals what...

So let's start with categories. There is phyisical , personality , social.

Physical is well , what man is capable of doing and how healthy he is. Basically how well is he optimized to spend aquired energy.

On what should man spend energy?

Gathering resources , competing in social hiearchy , improving his skills. 

Head indicates some abilities like bite force, skull rigidity (how much punches or injuries man can take), intelligence. This are obvious factors. We can go in deep analisys about how each trait might influence his abilities but that's already done i want to put general idea of attractivness and people can't sumarize it well enough i guess.

Personality is a personal (lol) way of viewing world. It could be defined as specific type. I like jungian types with cognitive functions. However personality should be entierly non phyisical. 

It defiens values, perceptions, goals, reactions. It's a man's software. It has 0 impact on CFD as said and CFD might affect personality.

Social

This is purely relative status in society and what's valued at moment. It changes due to circumstances. In war psychopaths have it easier. In network type societies (right now) psychopaths are hated but however thrive on short benefits. Psychopaths are extreme case and have different social "strategy"

Thing is with attraction that it's not binary. There is no ultimate best partner. Yeah proper physical development is required but you have certain fenotype which expressed itself. It's specialized to do something and it's dependent on your enviroment. Certain enviroments will require different fenotypes to be expressed , sort of like specialization.

Some men when mascule will be shunned a side and some women won't get enough of them. It's what their personal genes are attracted to. Something triggered brain to induce attraction to this type of man.

This is why personality is usually not a factor. It's entierly subjective and can go each way to - or +. While healthy looks and status is always welcome in a vacum however it drags sometimes negative personality traits for some women. In todays culcture you need to be a little psychopathic to get really ahead. It's just what's rewarded. Don't ask me why.

But somehow it's already known for women and some of them will avoid this sucessful men without ever not knowing their personality. They already on some level know that these psychopathic men will rise in social status and reject not high status that they posses but assumed psychopathy it carries with. 

This is your typical CEO asshole.

Now let's look at chad , this is somebody with execptional phisical traits.

As said above it's primordial ability to expend energy efficienty in phisical pursuits. Chads are more "optimized" due to them having proper development. I believe that looks = health. Now some of looks are really dependent on enviroment. Big ears are associated with hot climate. It's adaptive to hot areas , small ears are for cold areas ect...

This physical adaption is climate dependant and is also subjective to woman's preferences.

However there is genreally bad signals face can give and it's with weak muscle functioning. It might be that recessed maxillas signal muscles imbalances and overall weaker performance with no benefits. Mouth breathing is dangerous for imunity since nose does not filter air out. Sleep apnea is caused by tounge , bad sleep gives man less energy ect ect. Mouth breathing might reduce IQ.

So for chad is just really well developed man. Why then are they valued so much or at least tend to be? Is it then genetics as some incels believe or is it ability to be best due to having best development (most healthy)?

Then what attracts women? Is it resources he has or ability to get resources most efficiently? Is it personality which is best for gathering resources in specific enviroment? Is it personality which is best at defending family phyisically? Is it easy going personality which makes friends everywhere? Is it overthinking analiyst?

I argue that it's not that simple. I think there HAS to be physical treshold for mans attractivens since he needs to be able to "fight" in world for his family.

Today to be financialy stable you don't need to be fit. Before there was no civilization. Only thing that was best at predicting you survived is food and social status. With those you are safe. If you can run properly if you can breath long to hunt those animals , if you had skull which could take hits inevitably.

Bad boys have potential to get resources trough confilts and to ignore others. Some girls value this ability i believe. Why? Cause their families probably triggered this in their heads and set those girls to search this trait in a man. That's how humans learn.

Golddiggers want resources and are usually poor and have materialistic families. (Most of them)

This is how enviroment shapes personality aspect. Some personality traits have impact on social componets. As i said before social context changes over days , months years. While personality is more fixed in my opinion.

People with personalities gravitate towards certain social structures it's not other way around. Social structures don't create personalities, they only promote certain traits which you may or may not have.

So a lot of chads actually end up being asholes. Their brain decided that they can afford to put themselves first since people will still like them even if they are assholes. It's ironic how women complain about assholes and still date them. Why should he change if he is getting what he wants? Yeah his brain concluded same. She is trying to fix this "shotgun" approach he has to more of a sniper rifle approach. 

Sniper is a focused and see's far , has 1 target and aims for a goal. However it's not as deadly as shotgun can be. This is annology to chad's repdoduciton strategy. Women want's a sniper , chad is a machine gun / shotgun (both work fine).

Shotgun spreads pellets everywhere and is blind to anything above 30m. It has no goals and is really deadly up close. Just like a chad. Kills bunch of stuff and usually after everything does not know what it aimed at. This is chad that decides to sleep around much.

Comment on femminie men. They can be more useful when connections are more important then resources. This is why i think masculitiy will die out. Most of population is already fed. At least in modern world. Women now want somebody which is more capable of connecting them with other people. At least some women do. It's scientifically roven that femminine traits are better for human networking.

I known bisexual men and they are so easy going and can connect with a lot of people. At least that's how i see it. Somebody with masculine mindset will already be thinking about how i beat you in things you do, how do i get above you. That's your typical alpha male. I find it pathetic that they need to signal  that they are better then other men. If women want's status or resorces then yeah she will be happy with that.

What you call personal prefrence in personality is not chosen by you but rather already detirmined by enviroment you grew up in. When you find yourself in contradictory circumstances seek therapy or nothing will change easily. Today men changed from biological roots and this will confuse a lot of women.

All this blackpillers , redpiller dating coaches, blue pilled people have valid perspectives , that's all what i am going to say. They have all different goals.

Blackpillers fundementally can't accept other persons free will. That's disturbing thought but it's true. It's already predetrimend by their personal ideology what women want. I had short blackpill phase (stupid quarantine nd dark places...). They tend to believe only their internal representation is correct. Only what they believe is true and it's already set in stone. Information is always intepreted into certain way and it's hard to turn them back. I can accept looks matter , maybe even most of all actually but still i can stop bombard myself with negative self impretations.

Redpillers are trying to operate in external world. They are entirely focused on outside goals. Something like psychopathy. They want external benefits and are constantly trying to obtain that. Their theories are self repeating. Some of them tend to be redpilled in order to protect themselves from trauma actually. They don't even know they are traumatized by bad relationship and go on and spread women are who res , ect ect.

Some of them try to signal specific personality traits / social traits , basically lie to obtain sex. This is why women feel played and where i would distinct players vs chads. Players aren't that physically attractive and signal specific attractive traits towards their targets (psychopatic goals) while chads are just themselves.

Back to blackpilers they are usually people with less agressive and more neurotic personalities. Neurotic people are most dangerous. Controlled aggresion usually gives some kind of compromise or results (bad boys) while neurotic outburst is falior of non integrated emotions and has no goal (Eliot Rodged , isert mass murdered here).

This type of  outburst is useless and dangerous and that's why controlled agression of badboy is attractive and percieved as assertive while this is toxic masculinity and weakness.

Unfortenally i am not navie to be"bluepill" , don't have physical traits to get "chad" lifestyle, have conciousenss to not be redpilled scum and have too analitical mind which attracts me to a blackpill and forums like these. That's why i am here. I coudn't believe in first place that everybody is beautiful i think everything can be intepreted and quite possibly should in some categorical sense cause it will give us all best way of dealing with it logically and rationally.

Blackpill is actually mirror of this forum. People here try to imrove themselves with unconventional views with hard ideology. (actually this is closer to lookism but anyway). I see bunch of people focusing on only phyisical , giving theories about how things work , thinking for themselves, not following mainstream methods and actually get some "results" afterall proving their theories correct.

If you read up until here congrats.