Jaws: Masseter pattern vs Temporal pattern

Very interesting take. I have a couple of questions I was hoping you could clarify:

1. How does this theory account for the reduced dental arch length (lack of space for wisdom teeth) that we observe in CFD? And would temporalis pattern remedy the situation and make room for the wisdom teeth?

2. What's the role of the tongue that you suggest? Lightly suctioning in the back? Pushing upwards? Anterior vs posterior engagement? I notice that on the mandible, we have forces acting on it from the masseter pushing it up and forwards, and from the temporalis pushing it up and backwards. Consequently, we need some balancing force pushing downwards. This could come either from the tongue, pushing on the roof of the mouth, or the immediate dental forces of teeth resting against each other, or some combination. That being said, I don't think anyone is advocating for clenching.

And also, could you elaborate on the specifics of how to engage the temporalis vs the masseter, both when chewing and when at rest?

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions, but this theory is very interesting to me. I definitely agree that the masseter-zygo axis is overly compressed in most everyone, but I don't think this is because our masseters are suddenly more active than our ancestors. I think the masseters are just more active than the temporalis, but still both muscles are less active than in our ancestors. This is likely due, like you said, to improper chewing pattern and resting pattern.

Also, I think this theory accounts for Mew's observation in gonial angle changes that the relative distance between the pogonion and the condyle is constant. The compression along the masseter-zygo axis would not affect that distance, but rather the angle of the mandible, as the masseter's insertion point is at the angle/bottom of the ramus.

In another thread I was just mentioning that it may be more important to keep the incisors in contact versus the molars. Wouldn't this type of bite activate the temporal pattern more?  For me, a strong incisor type of bite has been a natural byproduct of mewing. Of course if I had a healthy and normal oral structure, the incisors and the molars would all connect evenly.

When I was chewing gum a moment ago, it seemed like the masseters were less active when I chewed the gum with the front teeth. Perhaps that is a way to activate the temporal pattern?

Posted by: @qwerty135

Very interesting take. I have a couple of questions I was hoping you could clarify:

Great questions. I'll address them one by one:

1. How does this theory account for the reduced dental arch length (lack of space for wisdom teeth) that we observe in CFD? And would temporalis pattern remedy the situation and make room for the wisdom teeth?

Several possibilities come to mind: 

1. the responsibility of dental arch development lies solely with the tongue's ability to expand the palate

2. teeth contact in accordance with the temporal pattern causes each molar to mechanically "squeeze" the next molar behind it out of the gum, at least when it comes to the maxilla. For mandible, simply gaining room in the posterior alveolar process by having the molars pushed forward could be enough to allow for eruption to take place.

3.  since for cranio-facial bones remodeling occurs by resorption at one place and subsequent deposition at another place (see picture below), it could happen that activating the temporal pattern creates a specific kind of resorption/deposition pattern that ultimately results in additional bone growth in the posterior alveolar process.

2. What's the role of the tongue that you suggest? Lightly suctioning in the back? Pushing upwards? Anterior vs posterior engagement? I notice that on the mandible, we have forces acting on it from the masseter pushing it up and forwards, and from the temporalis pushing it up and backwards. Consequently, we need some balancing force pushing downwards. This could come either from the tongue, pushing on the roof of the mouth, or the immediate dental forces of teeth resting against each other, or some combination. That being said, I don't think anyone is advocating for clenching.

This is still a little unclear. For me, suctioning in the back does seem to complement the temporal pattern very well, lip suction too. Pushing with the tip of the tongue, however, feels awkward. I think the weight of the head acts as the kind of balancing downwards force you mention. It's essentially this that the temporal pattern together with tongue seeks to counter.

And also, could you elaborate on the specifics of how to engage the temporalis vs the masseter, both when chewing and when at rest?

If you are asking how to engage temporalis in practice, I visualize it as biting up and backward with the mandible, so that the premolars and molars lock against each other. Of course though, when you are actually chewing something, both muscles will be activated by default and it would be very difficult to completely isolate either one.

For the most part, the scope of my post concerns default posture, i.e. the one you would hold during waking hours. How you chew is probably of lesser significance, so you should feel free to chew however feels natural to you. I'm inclined to think that the jaws are designed so that no major structural movements would occur during chewing, and that instead the jaws would seek to preserve the existing form during mastication. Having said that, it's probably worth experimenting with masseter-dominant and temporalis-dominant chewing alike and see how your occlusion feels afterwards.

I definitely agree that the masseter-zygo axis is overly compressed in most everyone, but I don't think this is because our masseters are suddenly more active than our ancestors. I think the masseters are just more active than the temporalis, but still both muscles are less active than in our ancestors. This is likely due, like you said, to improper chewing pattern and resting pattern.

Ah yes, I agree, it's about relative activity, that part may have been a bit unclear.

Also, I think this theory accounts for Mew's observation in gonial angle changes that the relative distance between the pogonion and the condyle is constant. The compression along the masseter-zygo axis would not affect that distance, but rather the angle of the mandible, as the masseter's insertion point is at the angle/bottom of the ramus.

Good point. That may very well be accurate.

Posted by: @shakti_om

In another thread I was just mentioning that it may be more important to keep the incisors in contact versus the molars. Wouldn't this type of bite activate the temporal pattern more?  For me, a strong incisor type of bite has been a natural byproduct of mewing. Of course if I had a healthy and normal oral structure, the incisors and the molars would all connect evenly.

When I was chewing gum a moment ago, it seemed like the masseters were less active when I chewed the gum with the front teeth. Perhaps that is a way to activate the temporal pattern?

You can try which pattern is activated by putting your thumbs on the masseters and other fingers on the temporalii, then biting a little harder so that the muscles activate properly. It may be that the theory plays out a little differently depending on one's type of occlusion. In my case, chewing with the front teeth (be it edge-to-edge or side-to-side) results in almost pure masseter activation. I have deep overbite with class 3 molar relationship, which is kind of a contradictory classification since class 3 usually equals underbite. Incisor contact just never really worked out for as much as it made sense on an intuitive level.

From my personal observations with myself, temporalis activation seems to be linked with my mandibles position in the skull. My jaw is quite set back and results in a very active and strong temporalis that gave me headaches. When I mew with my jaw jutted forward however I get more masseter activity in ratio and less pressure in my skull from temporalis activation. This has helped a lot with my headaches. And shows me functionally that my maxilla needs to come forward if I dont want a Tyler1 head

By the logic of this theory I may very well have recessed myself with my temporal meat smh

@Progress With an abundance of people (men, especially) who have proper facial development and yet have unimpressive dental arches, would you say this temporal activation could be more important than tongue posture?

I've been trying it for a few hours and my midface was burning after a while. It seems like cuspids and premolars together is where the pressure happens for me, and I felt like expansion needed to happen in this area more than gaining further intermolar space, so it's promising to get a response there. My bite is class 2 div 1, which echos what you said about incisor contact being intuitive (because these teeth have never touched each other) but not doing anything.

Posted by: @paperbag

@Progress With an abundance of people (men, especially) who have proper facial development and yet have unimpressive dental arches, would you say this temporal activation could be more important than tongue posture?

I've been trying it for a few hours and my midface was burning after a while. It seems like cuspids and premolars together is where the pressure happens for me, and I felt like expansion needed to happen in this area more than gaining further intermolar space, so it's promising to get a response there. My bite is class 2 div 1, which echos what you said about incisor contact being intuitive (because these teeth have never touched each other) but not doing anything.

I suspect John Mew is right when he states that the tongue creates expansion and that teeth contact determines jaw positioning. One would not necessarily more important than the other, rather they are responsible for different (lateral vs sagittal) aspects of facial development. The cuspids and premolars are where the strongest point of contact is for me too. Usually, after remembering to maintain this position for an hour or so, my overbite feels a little less deep judging by the amount of internal surface of the upper incisors that the lower incisors allow to be palpated.

Posted by: @maxiller

From my personal observations with myself, temporalis activation seems to be linked with my mandibles position in the skull. My jaw is quite set back and results in a very active and strong temporalis that gave me headaches. When I mew with my jaw jutted forward however I get more masseter activity in ratio and less pressure in my skull from temporalis activation. This has helped a lot with my headaches. And shows me functionally that my maxilla needs to come forward if I dont want a Tyler1 head

By the logic of this theory I may very well have recessed myself with my temporal meat smh

There likely are unhealthy extremes for both activation patterns. In addition, head and neck posture should also influence the nature of forces that each pattern generates throughout the skull. Temporalis activation with loose forward head posture could well do more harm than good. I try to combine the temporalis pattern with gentle chin tucking and neck elongation, since all three of these are generally viewed as natural parts of the spinal postural chain.

How can a Class 3 bite touch the molars? My wisdom teeth literally can't touch each other. 

Posted by: @progress

I suspect John Mew is right when he states that the tongue creates expansion and that teeth contact determines jaw positioning. One would not necessarily more important than the other, rather they are responsible for different (lateral vs sagittal) aspects of facial development. The cuspids and premolars are where the strongest point of contact is for me too. Usually, after remembering to maintain this position for an hour or so, my overbite feels a little less deep judging by the amount of internal surface of the upper incisors that the lower incisors allow to be palpated.

Once the overbite is set in development it's hard as hell to change it back to its proper form. Where what feels "natural" is just a feedback loop enforcing bad habits. Where pressures should be more or less equal across all teeth, we find ourselves with molar contact with nothing to show for the front canines and incisors. This is my case especially and I believe it is mostly responsible for lack of forward projection for myself and many users, where is seems like the maxilla has folded into a higher angle, where the belief is that the palate should be relatively flat. Instead of needing "new growth" what we really need is to unfold the maxilla thus solving the problem of "deep bites" we see everywhere. This would also include a very considerable amount of midface protrusion, where the teeth from the side profile are sightly ahead of the nasion as seen in the most attractive people, and if you notice their bites, its almost always close to the ideal, almost an edge to edge bite.

Form follows function, and when the front maxilla and its teeth arent functional, our body neglects them, as they are unneeded. And our muscles follow suit with compensations. Taking a functional approach to these issues seems beneficial, and I'll share an exercise that could be very helpful.

Get a flannel or a towel, roll it up, and bite into it with the whole front complex of your dentition, apply as much pressure as youre comfortable with, "chew" it. I have experiences strong sensations around all the areas I am deficient in namely, around my nose, under my eyes and in my inner zygos. Right at the sutural connections. You can apply some pull to further simulate how the front teeth were intended to be used.

I think it's likely that proper muscular use in the temporalis and masseter will come naturally once the framework they're attached to are in full functional order. Once the teeth connect to eachother from the molars to incisors, and once the tongue slots into the roof of the mouth like they were made for eachother. It's just so damn difficult to achieve these things when your body has programmed itself to your lifelong habits. Dysfunctional chewing forces may be of significant importance in skull form. This comes back to Progress' central point

Posted by: @progress

Posted by: @shakti_om

In another thread I was just mentioning that it may be more important to keep the incisors in contact versus the molars. Wouldn't this type of bite activate the temporal pattern more?  For me, a strong incisor type of bite has been a natural byproduct of mewing. Of course if I had a healthy and normal oral structure, the incisors and the molars would all connect evenly.

When I was chewing gum a moment ago, it seemed like the masseters were less active when I chewed the gum with the front teeth. Perhaps that is a way to activate the temporal pattern?

You can try which pattern is activated by putting your thumbs on the masseters and other fingers on the temporalii, then biting a little harder so that the muscles activate properly. It may be that the theory plays out a little differently depending on one's type of occlusion. In my case, chewing with the front teeth (be it edge-to-edge or side-to-side) results in almost pure masseter activation. I have deep overbite with class 3 molar relationship, which is kind of a contradictory classification since class 3 usually equals underbite. Incisor contact just never really worked out for as much as it made sense on an intuitive level.

I made the mistake of saying incisors, when I really should have presented the possible importance of the canines meeting together. I would say that is where the majority of the bite pressure is for me. It seems like exerting more bite force in the front of the mouth would create more facial upswing. I think the canines also play an important in stabilizing the side to side movement of the jaw.

It is interesting to think about how different types of bites activate different muscles, but the concept is little confusing to me. There is only one way I can close my teeth together comfortably, and I think it may be important to allow proper tongue posture and swallowing pattern to naturally move the jaw into the correct position. Then again, my myobrace moves my lower jaw forward so that my incisors are aligned. But keeping that alignment without it on, feels totally unnatural at the moment.

Posted by: @maxiller

Get a flannel or a towel, roll it up, and bite into it with the whole front complex of your dentition, apply as much pressure as youre comfortable with, "chew" it

Are you suggesting facepulling with towels? 

@scerif

No

Facepulling as I understand it is hooking the edge of a towel behind the back of the last molars at the maxilla, biting down and pulling in the hopes of disarticulating sutures and pulling everything forward. I've experimented with this and don't recommend it, I think its too forceful and potentially damaging.

This exercise is functional force applied to the front maxilla and teeth that encourages natural ripping, tearing and cutting movements that the front teeth and skull were designed for, with intention that over time the skull adapts to this new function. And you dont need to use a towel. You can rip into a slab of meat If you want to be a true neolithic naturalist, but a towel or flannel works just fine.

It's only pulling in the respect that humans without a knife and fork would bite and pull on tough foods, which is what I'm trying to emulate. Its the first part of the process of eating, without the molar use and subsequent bolus and swallow, which I believe many of us are deficient as most of our food is too soft or cut up for us, so we only really need to use the molars. Resulting in overbite from under utilized incisors and canines.

Realistically a consistent molar contact is found in many short faced people. But they also have overbites and flat/weak profiles where the teeth in profile are significantly behind the nasion and the lower third is weak. In other words, the consistent molar pressure prevented the skull from growing down the way it needs to. These bites may even come with a wide skull, but often they come with vertical deficiency. 

This is why I am a proponent of chewing with all teeth. 

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Realistically a consistent molar contact is found in many short faced people. But they also have overbites and flat/weak profiles where the teeth in profile are significantly behind the nasion and the lower third is weak. In other words, the consistent molar pressure prevented the skull from growing down the way it needs to. These bites may even come with a wide skull, but often they come with vertical deficiency. 

This is why I am a proponent of chewing with all teeth. 

 

 

 

 

 

If the temporal pattern being activated is upwards, how would that encourage the maxilla to move down? (in terms of remodelling as an adult, that is) Deficient lower thirds in people with short faces need to elongate, though, I agree.

Posted by: @maxiller

 

Once the overbite is set in development it's hard as hell to change it back to its proper form. Where what feels "natural" is just a feedback loop enforcing bad habits. Where pressures should be more or less equal across all teeth, we find ourselves with molar contact with nothing to show for the front canines and incisors. This is my case especially and I believe it is mostly responsible for lack of forward projection for myself and many users, where is seems like the maxilla has folded into a higher angle, where the belief is that the palate should be relatively flat. Instead of needing "new growth" what we really need is to unfold the maxilla thus solving the problem of "deep bites" we see everywhere. This would also include a very considerable amount of midface protrusion, where the teeth from the side profile are sightly ahead of the nasion as seen in the most attractive people, and if you notice their bites, its almost always close to the ideal, almost an edge to edge bite.

Form follows function, and when the front maxilla and its teeth arent functional, our body neglects them, as they are unneeded. And our muscles follow suit with compensations. Taking a functional approach to these issues seems beneficial, and I'll share an exercise that could be very helpful.

Get a flannel or a towel, roll it up, and bite into it with the whole front complex of your dentition, apply as much pressure as youre comfortable with, "chew" it. I have experiences strong sensations around all the areas I am deficient in namely, around my nose, under my eyes and in my inner zygos. Right at the sutural connections. You can apply some pull to further simulate how the front teeth were intended to be used.

I think it's likely that proper muscular use in the temporalis and masseter will come naturally once the framework they're attached to are in full functional order. Once the teeth connect to eachother from the molars to incisors, and once the tongue slots into the roof of the mouth like they were made for eachother. It's just so damn difficult to achieve these things when your body has programmed itself to your lifelong habits. Dysfunctional chewing forces may be of significant importance in skull form. This comes back to Progress' central point

Agree about the towel method. I have used it intermittently and it does stimulate the whole anterior maxilla. According to the following stress simulation, loading the canines creates the largest maxillary strain of all teeth (possibly due to residing right at the premaxillary suture?), which ties well with @shakti_om 's thoughts:

Posted by: @paperbag

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Realistically a consistent molar contact is found in many short faced people. But they also have overbites and flat/weak profiles where the teeth in profile are significantly behind the nasion and the lower third is weak. In other words, the consistent molar pressure prevented the skull from growing down the way it needs to. These bites may even come with a wide skull, but often they come with vertical deficiency. 

This is why I am a proponent of chewing with all teeth. 

If the temporal pattern being activated is upwards, how would that encourage the maxilla to move down? (in terms of remodelling as an adult, that is) Deficient lower thirds in people with short faces need to elongate, though, I agree.

What is a short face, really? Google gives scarce results on this topic. I found one site with several cases that were labelled as "short face growth pattern" -- but here is the catch: the treatment consisted of rotating the jaws clockwise, which paradoxically is what @eddiemoney says should already have taken place naturally due to the excessive molar contact that short-faced people have. The question is, why does excessive molar contact result in CCW rotation?  

https://pocketdentistry.com/23-short-face-growth-patterns-maxillomandibular-deficiency/

So in some sense, the temporalii and masseters could be thought of as antagonistic muscles, in that an imbalance in either of them affects the other and messes up the system. Perhaps that can be used to explain “short-faced” people who have low gonial angle? A different type of imbalance?

Posted by: @qwerty135

So in some sense, the temporalii and masseters could be thought of as antagonistic muscles, in that an imbalance in either of them affects the other and messes up the system. Perhaps that can be used to explain “short-faced” people who have low gonial angle? A different type of imbalance?

Yes, something like that. Not fully antagonistic, but clearly serving separate purposes.

To @shakti_om and others who were having difficulties isolating the two patterns from each other, I realized that instead of being defined as just up-forward or up-backward motion, the difference between the patterns is perhaps more accurately defined as horizontal vs vertical motion. The masseter, with its origin residing between the TM joints, can mostly only engage vertically. Temporalis, with its origin residing outside the TM joints, can also engage horizontally. This horizontal motion takes place when you grind sideways with your teeth. I am just trying it with a rolled up sock and it feels... nice. Grinding back and forth from side to side, roots of the teeth become sore fast, hinting towards a strain pattern that the teeth are not accustomed to. It may be that such sideways grinding motion is something that many are lacking in their mastication pattern, unwittingly opting for the vertical-dominant crushing motion of the masseters instead, thus ending up with deeper bites.

Also, I wonder what the optimal duration and force of engaging the temporal pattern during resting posture is. Is it simply a matter of strengthening the temporalii if they’re weak due to underutilization during mastication, and the duration doesn’t especially matter? I suspect like most other bone-related movements, a sufficient duration would be important as well as strengthening them. 

As for force, I’ve found that a slight clenching is best for me to engage the temporalii, but this might just be because my temporalii are especially weak. It might vary for the individual. But I don’t think this is sustainable for me in the long term, if it’s always going to require some clenching-I’m worried about this leading to tooth wear or bruxism. And I know that more than 4-8 hours of teeth together leads to dental intrusion. Hopefully as the muscles strengthen, less time and force might be needed as the temporalii will be able to exert more force without needing to have my teeth clenching as hard.

Are any of you getting any feelings from this? During a 1-2 hour session, I sometimes (it’s happened thrice now) get feelings from within my skull, right above the back of  mouth, right above the center of your soft palate. Like something’s trying to come down or move around. It might be where the temporalis muscle connects to the maxilla, and as the muscle’s strengthening, I get this feeling. Also, I sometimes get sensations on the left side of my skull/scalp, leading me to believe the left temporalis might be more underdeveloped.

Found an interesting study that affirms the premises of this thread. A couple of bits:

An orthognathic[=normal] maxilla is also present in individuals with a large temporalis muscle proportion, suggesting a key role of the form of the maxilla in the production and resistance of masticatory loads.

...a large temporalis proportion is associated with a relatively antero-posteriorly elongated neurocranium and mandibular ramus, wider upper face and less prognathic, narrower, vertically shorter maxilla compared to those individuals with small temporalis proportions

...there is evidence of a weak relationship between temporalis muscle CSA and skull and face shape that is at least consistent with the location, anatomy and function of this muscle and anatomical space required to accommodate it.

Thus, Weijs and Hillen (1986) have also noted that temporalis and masseter CSA appear to be positively correlated with facial width. With regard to the relationship found between a relatively small temporalis proportion and a vertically elongated skull and face, van Spronsen (2010) noted such an association and suggested that a long face is the result of a diminished muscle force

Interestingly, increased temporalis proportion was also associated with more narrow palates, though this relationship was deemed more inconclusive than the other more positive aspects of large temporalis proportion:

In relation to the relationship suggested by the present analyses between larger temporalis proportion and narrower maxillae, there are few and inconclusive studies addressing the mechanical impact of variations in maxillary width on masticatory mechanics. In women, a wide dental arch has been noted to be associated with a (medio-laterally) thicker masseter (Kiliaridis
et al., 2003), whereas no relationship between bite force and dental arch width was found in pre-adolescents (Sonnesen and Bakke, 2005). It should be borne in mind, however, that a combination of an orthognathic, less prognathic and wide maxilla at the posterior teeth (and vice versa) may result in deviations from the normally found elliptic–parabolic (in rough terms) maxillary arch (Burris and Harris, 2000; Ferrario et al., 1994), and therefore a narrowmaxilla in individuals with a large temporalis proportion may not necessarily be functionally significant

http://repositorio.uchile.cl/bitstream/handle/2250/136879/The-relationship-between-skull-morphology.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

So in conclusion, temporalis activity correlates with:

• longer ramus
• longer skull
• shorter maxilla
• wider face
• (narrower maxilla)

Posted by: @progress

Posted by: @qwerty135

So in some sense, the temporalii and masseters could be thought of as antagonistic muscles, in that an imbalance in either of them affects the other and messes up the system. Perhaps that can be used to explain “short-faced” people who have low gonial angle? A different type of imbalance?

Yes, something like that. Not fully antagonistic, but clearly serving separate purposes.

To @shakti_om and others who were having difficulties isolating the two patterns from each other, I realized that instead of being defined as just up-forward or up-backward motion, the difference between the patterns is perhaps more accurately defined as horizontal vs vertical motion. The masseter, with its origin residing between the TM joints, can mostly only engage vertically. Temporalis, with its origin residing outside the TM joints, can also engage horizontally. This horizontal motion takes place when you grind sideways with your teeth. I am just trying it with a rolled up sock and it feels... nice. Grinding back and forth from side to side, roots of the teeth become sore fast, hinting towards a strain pattern that the teeth are not accustomed to. It may be that such sideways grinding motion is something that many are lacking in their mastication pattern, unwittingly opting for the vertical-dominant crushing motion of the masseters instead, thus ending up with deeper bites.

 

That's probably why bruxism patients are sometimes cited as having great facial appearances. I assume there would still be some kind of "balance" kept with excessive usage of both areas if the person already has a class 1 occlusion (a habit formed in childhood, in that case), compared to those who are grinding with only their masseters while in a malocclusion. I tried mild side to side clenching a few months ago and had early beneficial feelings that quickly reversed into discomfort; it was likely 90% masseter activation because my bite felt deeper.

I'm not advocating bruxism at all, to clarify.

I think the side to side mastication is hard to get with overbites/overjets because even doing it with molars feels mostly like a masseter response.

@qwerty135 For the past two days, I'll lay in bed on my side and hear a couple of cracks in my skull after having spent the prior hours activating the temporal area. I also get an intermittent buzzing sensation behind my nose throughout the day when doing it.

Posted by: @qwerty135

Also, I wonder what the optimal duration and force of engaging the temporal pattern during resting posture is. Is it simply a matter of strengthening the temporalii if they’re weak due to underutilization during mastication, and the duration doesn’t especially matter? I suspect like most other bone-related movements, a sufficient duration would be important as well as strengthening them. As for force, I’ve found that a slight clenching is best for me to engage the temporalii, but this might just be because my temporalii are especially weak. It might vary for the individual. 

You are probably right. In the study I posted above, it was said that when there was a correlation between a small temporalis and an elongated face, the muscle consisted of slow-twitch fibers, i.e. it was geared for strength but not stamina. This suggests that there has to be some level of engagement throughout the day in order to reap benefits. I think that once you have established a good mind-muscle connection between the temporalis & the rest of your postural musculature, the force will be automatically determined by your physical needs during any activity. I'm noticing that a certain amount of firmness is needed to stabilize the neck during swift head movements.

But I don’t think this is sustainable for me in the long term, if it’s always going to require some clenching-I’m worried about this leading to tooth wear or bruxism. And I know that more than 4-8 hours of teeth together leads to dental intrusion. Hopefully as the muscles strengthen, less time and force might be needed as the temporalii will be able to exert more force without needing to have my teeth clenching as hard.

What feels like clenching now will probably feel like mere firm contact later on. It's the muscle that is working hard, not the enamel. Likely tongue suction and intra-oral vacuum should also balance the load a little so that you won't find yourself clenching excessively. Since It is said that teeth are the strongest bones in the body, I think that it is going to require deliberate strenuous clenching and grinding in order to wear them down. Simple firm contact is likely exactly what they were made to withstand. Caution and common sense are of course virtues though.

Are any of you getting any feelings from this? During a 1-2 hour session, I sometimes (it’s happened thrice now) get feelings from within my skull, right above the back of  mouth, right above the center of your soft palate. Like something’s trying to come down or move around. It might be where the temporalis muscle connects to the maxilla, and as the muscle’s strengthening, I get this feeling. Also, I sometimes get sensations on the left side of my skull/scalp, leading me to believe the left temporalis might be more underdeveloped.

Does it feel like a temporary change in pressure, as if something was about to unwind? If so I have felt it too.

Posted by: @progress

Are any of you getting any feelings from this? During a 1-2 hour session, I sometimes (it’s happened thrice now) get feelings from within my skull, right above the back of  mouth, right above the center of your soft palate. Like something’s trying to come down or move around. It might be where the temporalis muscle connects to the maxilla, and as the muscle’s strengthening, I get this feeling. Also, I sometimes get sensations on the left side of my skull/scalp, leading me to believe the left temporalis might be more underdeveloped.

Does it feel like a temporary change in pressure, as if something was about to unwind? If so I have felt it too.

Yes, like something is trying to unfurl from within my skull. It feels weird, almost like somethings caught in my throat, but it's not in my throat, instead it's a little higher. I never get the feeling of satisfaction that it has unfurled. I sometimes get the same sensation when I pull lightly on my maxilla with my thumbs, but very rarely does it happen.

Posted by: @progress

 

So in conclusion, temporalis activity correlates with:

• longer ramus
• longer skull
• shorter maxilla
• wider face
• (narrower maxilla)

But are these necessarily ideal scenarios from an aesthetics standpoint? These skulls would lack vertical height and would have less lip support with an overall less forward maxilla. This just creates a profile where the chin is strong, but the upper lip has 0 projection. Aka the profile of many people who Mew to get "upswing". When in reality these maxillae need to grow more downward to achieve balance between soft tissue and bony prominence. That orthognathic profile in reality could just have face that is too vertically short due to no maxilla height. 

Classic short face profile. Notice the low near 90° genial angle. Like I said above, these skulls can have width, but sometimes they need length. We're just moving in another direction toward somr sort of shorter faced ideal. But really it's all about balance. A "neutral maxilla". Not short nor long but ideal development. Sometimes the lack of lip support in maxillae that are too short creates a too long philtrum, too.

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Posted by: @progress

 

So in conclusion, temporalis activity correlates with:

• longer ramus
• longer skull
• shorter maxilla
• wider face
• (narrower maxilla)

But are these necessarily ideal scenarios from an aesthetics standpoint? These skulls would lack vertical height and would have less lip support with an overall less forward maxilla. This just creates a profile where the chin is strong, but the upper lip has 0 projection. Aka the profile of many people who Mew to get "upswing". When in reality these maxillae need to grow more downward to achieve balance between soft tissue and bony prominence. That orthognathic profile in reality could just have face that is too vertically short due to no maxilla height. 

[attach]1231[attach]

Classic short face profile. Notice the low near 90° genial angle. Like I said above, these skulls can have width, but sometimes they need length. We're just moving in another direction toward somr sort of shorter faced ideal. But really it's all about balance. A "neutral maxilla". Not short nor long but ideal development. Sometimes the lack of lip support in maxillae that are too short creates a too long philtrum, too.

These would be beneficial improvements for those suffering from the long face growth pattern, which I understand to be majority of CFD cases, since sedentary lifestyle should encourage slackjaw more than it encourages clenching. As of now, it's hard to conclude what exactly causes the short face pattern. Leaning too hard into the temporalis pattern? Temporalis pattern with poor posture? Other kind of clenching with poor posture? Wrong combination of jaw & tongue action, as suggested by @noises? And so on. Hopefully experimentation by us in this thread will shed some light on this.

One possible solution is that those with a short face pattern should engage their masseters more in order to create the kind of CW rotation that was surgically given to patients in the link I posted above. From studies like this we know that with masseter development anterior maxilla shifts downwards, which could bring one closer to that balance between soft tissue and bony prominence that you mention. I agree that it is about balance (neutral maxilla in my view is synonymous to orthognathic maxilla).  

Posted by: @progress

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Posted by: @progress

 

So in conclusion, temporalis activity correlates with:

• longer ramus
• longer skull
• shorter maxilla
• wider face
• (narrower maxilla)

But are these necessarily ideal scenarios from an aesthetics standpoint? These skulls would lack vertical height and would have less lip support with an overall less forward maxilla. This just creates a profile where the chin is strong, but the upper lip has 0 projection. Aka the profile of many people who Mew to get "upswing". When in reality these maxillae need to grow more downward to achieve balance between soft tissue and bony prominence. That orthognathic profile in reality could just have face that is too vertically short due to no maxilla height. 

[attach]1231[attach]

Classic short face profile. Notice the low near 90° genial angle. Like I said above, these skulls can have width, but sometimes they need length. We're just moving in another direction toward somr sort of shorter faced ideal. But really it's all about balance. A "neutral maxilla". Not short nor long but ideal development. Sometimes the lack of lip support in maxillae that are too short creates a too long philtrum, too.

These would be beneficial improvements for those suffering from the long face growth pattern, which I understand to be majority of CFD cases, since sedentary lifestyle should encourage slackjaw more than it encourages clenching. As of now, it's hard to conclude what exactly causes the short face pattern. Leaning too hard into the temporalis pattern? Temporalis pattern with poor posture? Other kind of clenching with poor posture? Wrong combination of jaw & tongue action, as suggested by @noises? And so on. Hopefully experimentation by us in this thread will shed some light on this.

One possible solution is that those with a short face pattern should engage their masseters more in order to create the kind of CW rotation that was surgically given to patients in the link I posted above. From studies like this we know that with masseter development anterior maxilla shifts downwards, which could bring one closer to that balance between soft tissue and bony prominence that you mention. I agree that it is about balance (neutral maxilla in my view is synonymous to orthognathic maxilla).  

 

I don't know that most CFD sufferers have long faces. Most I have seen posted on this forum have short lower thirds, and overall flat orthognathic profiles and Class 2 relationships. In fact it seems many people that Mew think their face is long, when in reality their middle third seems too long compared to the lower third. 

And while I agree that an orthognathic profile where upper and lower jaws are aligned with proper occlusion is neutral (as opposed to prognathic or worse retrognathic), I don't know that a short vertical height is necessary to achieve an aesthetic balance. Being that adult jaws grow forward and downward, a short vertical maxilla may be lacking in a bit of downward growth and can make the face look too short and compressed. 

Also do you know how a Class 3 person can engage their temporalis more? My wisdom teeth can't touch each other due to being Class 3. 

In my case I feel temporalis activation when I jut my jaw forwards and bite with less with my molars and more with my canines. I have open bite and deep bite so the only way i have to bite with my front teeth is to jut my jaw forwards. Also this helps me with the sucktion hold.

Do you think permanently closing my mouth by jutting my jaw forwards is beneficial? I have a slight overbite and my side profile looks way better when i jut.

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Also do you know how a Class 3 person can engage their temporalis more? My wisdom teeth can't touch each other due to being Class 3.

I can only speak for myself as a Class 3, but I’ve found that biting upwards and backwards with the premolars and canines allows me to engage the temporalii without engaging the masseters. In contrast, biting with the molars that do touch (1st molars and right side 2nd molars) leads to strong masseter usage. So I really do think it depends on the occlusion of the individual. Try to bite upwards and backwards, and see if you can move your teeth around so that temporalii but not masseters are activated. If it’s not the molars but some other teeth that feel pressure, it should be fine considering every individual has teeth that have erupted differently.

Posted by: @qwerty135

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Also do you know how a Class 3 person can engage their temporalis more? My wisdom teeth can't touch each other due to being Class 3.

I can only speak for myself as a Class 3, but I’ve found that biting upwards and backwards with the premolars and canines allows me to engage the temporalii without engaging the masseters. In contrast, biting with the molars that do touch (1st molars and right side 2nd molars) leads to strong masseter usage. So I really do think it depends on the occlusion of the individual. Try to bite upwards and backwards, and see if you can move your teeth around so that temporalii but not masseters are activated. If it’s not the molars but some other teeth that feel pressure, it should be fine considering every individual has teeth that have erupted differently.

How do you bite backwards with canines? Retract your jaw as you bite?

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Posted by: @progress

Posted by: @eddiemoney

These would be beneficial improvements for those suffering from the long face growth pattern, which I understand to be majority of CFD cases, since sedentary lifestyle should encourage slackjaw more than it encourages clenching. As of now, it's hard to conclude what exactly causes the short face pattern. Leaning too hard into the temporalis pattern? Temporalis pattern with poor posture? Other kind of clenching with poor posture? Wrong combination of jaw & tongue action, as suggested by @noises? And so on. Hopefully experimentation by us in this thread will shed some light on this.

One possible solution is that those with a short face pattern should engage their masseters more in order to create the kind of CW rotation that was surgically given to patients in the link I posted above. From studies like this we know that with masseter development anterior maxilla shifts downwards, which could bring one closer to that balance between soft tissue and bony prominence that you mention. I agree that it is about balance (neutral maxilla in my view is synonymous to orthognathic maxilla).  

 

I don't know that most CFD sufferers have long faces. Most I have seen posted on this forum have short lower thirds, and overall flat orthognathic profiles and Class 2 relationships. In fact it seems many people that Mew think their face is long, when in reality their middle third seems too long compared to the lower third. 

That is exactly what the long face pattern is, no? Consider how practically all illustrations and common examples of CFD feature a classic down-swung long-face pattern, such as this one from the Mews:

The lower third is mostly a reflection of occlusion, which makes mandibular proportions not so important in regard to identifying growth patterns. Though, there does exist an important marker of growth within the mandible: the antegonial notch. I'd go as far as asserting that anytime there is an ante-gonial notch present, you are dealing with a long face pattern.

Why?

Because not a single short-face case example listed >here< or elsewhere features an ante-gonial notch (instead, many of their jaws feature a convex curve!). In fact, some of them were left with notches as a result of the osteotomical treatment itself, because their maxillae were now a little longer. The short-face pattern must thus be an antithesis to concave jaw curvature i.e. the antegonial notch.

And while I agree that an orthognathic profile where upper and lower jaws are aligned with proper occlusion is neutral (as opposed to prognathic or worse retrognathic), I don't know that a short vertical height is necessary to achieve an aesthetic balance. Being that adult jaws grow forward and downward, a short vertical maxilla may be lacking in a bit of downward growth and can make the face look too short and compressed. 

Note that I am not talking of shortness as an absolute term here. The study I quoted found out that those with strong temporalis muscle tone had shorter maxillae than those with weaker temporalis. Hence the conclusion I'm drawing here is that slack in the temporalis may cause unfavourable lengthening of the face --- not that a short maxilla is a virtue unto itself.

Posted by: @authority

Do you think permanently closing my mouth by jutting my jaw forwards is beneficial? I have a slight overbite and my side profile looks way better when i jut.

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Also do you know how a Class 3 person can engage their temporalis more? My wisdom teeth can't touch each other due to being Class 3. 

I'm afraid I can't give an answer here. Most of what I have written in this thread is based on my own experiential knowledge (deep bite). In my shortsightedness I did not realize that there would be this much variation in activation patterns between us.

I think overuse of the temporalis causes overly short faces amd overuse of the masseters lengthens the face. So I think balancing your biting with molar, premolars, canine, and incisor contact is the best route to balance out the face.

I wonder if the stronger temporalis skulls had stronger lip seals as a result of mandibular retraction? That may tighten the lip seal after all, causing the maxilla to avoid growing too far forward.

The long faced person probably needs some flattening of their occlusal plane whereas the short faced person needs their maxilla to come down a bit. 

@eddiemoney

@progress

Maybe a description of my personal case and of the poor posture that led to my CFD will add something to the "short face" vs. "long face" dichotomy:

Although I thought that I understood it, this "short face" vs. "long face" terminology is becoming increasingly confusing to me. When I first became interested in mewing, I naively assumed that everyone had the same type of CFD - just of varying degree - and I held to Dr. Mew's belief that poor development was caused by downward growth leading to a "long face". I've quite recently realized that there are different categories of CFD, and I'm not all too sure if mine could be described as a "long face".

It is true that my mid-face appears long, but it's likely because my lower third is short and retruded. The combined effect of my CFD is actually that from the front-view, my face appears fairly round, and my nose very prominent. I have a broad forehead and brow, but my jawline is narrow in comparison, and its obfuscated further by my fat cheeks (even though I'm quite skinny, I have a lot of loose skin on my face). So, again, my face appears more round than long. Plus, my gonial angle, though not ideal in the absolute sense, is actually decent for a modern face. It seems that what I need in order to return to a more natural facial form is not for the entire face to shorten, but only for the midface to shorten, and for the mandible to actually obtain more height, width and forward projection.

Now, what led to this type of CFD was the fact that since childhood I had been a mouth-breather. I would let my jaw slack all day, with my lips open, and with my tongue on the bottom of my mouth (I didn't even keep the tip of it up, and it seemed completely alien to me when I first learned that a proper oral posture involves the tongue kept on the roof of the mouth). I would sleep with my mouth open and my face pressed into the pillow, and wake up with drool on the bed sheet in the morning. I never clenched my jaw, and I would chew food very little before slowing.

I presume that upon hearing of my poor oral posture, and knowing nothing else, many would assume that my face grew very long - but it didn't. It actually grew round. And while my midface is long, it would be more correct to describe my whole face as inward-grown, rather than downward-grown.

This discussion makes me question how a short-faced person should hold their teeth at rest. I, like many others, cannot bite down to connect both my molars and my front teeth simultaneously. This is because my maxillary canines and incisors slope downward (and protrude forward), while my molars are positioned higher up. So, I've got two choices: I can either jut my mandible forward a little to form a bite with my front teeth, leaving a small gap between my molars; or retrude my mandible a bit to connect my top and bottom molars, thus creating a greater overbite. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about chewing here; I'm talking about the position at rest, and in my case, I can't maintain a tongue suction hold without teeth contact. Personally, I prefer jutting my jaw toward my front teeth, as this feels more comfortable and slightly improves my profile. If @eddiemoney is correct about his hypothesis (and I'm not misunderstanding it), then this should over time allow the maxillary molars to move downward in relation to the front teeth and "level" my bite.

Furthermore, if that's the mechanism, then I wonder what effect it would have on the midface: would it rotate CCW, decreasing the prominence of the nose?

@qwerty135

I have Class 2 malocclusion, but like you, I can only stimulate the temporal muscles by biting up and backwards. When doing this, I do not feel any significant masseter stimulation (unlike when I bite up and forward, which produces a lot of masseter stimulation and but hardly any temporal stimulation). @progress seems correct about the difference of stimulation between the two muscle groups, but I'm skeptical as to whether biting backwards would be beneficial for someone with a Class 2-related CFD...seems, counter-intuitive? I'm open to being corrected, though 🙂

Posted by: @elwynn

@qwerty135

I have Class 2 malocclusion, but like you, I can only stimulate the temporal muscles by biting up and backwards. When doing this, I do not feel any significant masseter stimulation (unlike when I bite up and forward, which produces a lot of masseter stimulation and but hardly any temporal stimulation). @progress seems correct about the difference of stimulation between the two muscle groups, but I'm skeptical as to whether biting backwards would be beneficial for someone with a Class 2-related CFD...seems, counter-intuitive? I'm open to being corrected, though 🙂

Yeah, seems like the upwards and backwards direction results in almost pure temporalis activation just because that vector is along the temporal muscle’s direction of pull(which is what Progress outlined in his first post) and it’s perpendicular to the masseter muscle’s direction of pull, leading to almost 0 activation from that. That should be independent of Class 1,2,3,4 occlusion I believe. Just as Mew says everyone’s maxilla is too far down and back regardless of occlusion, Progress is saying everyone with long face’s temporal axis(containing the temporalis and maxilla palate) is too long due to underutilization of the temporalis and thus we must use the temporalis more, regardless of your occlusion Class.

And actually wouldn’t biting up and back  seem to rectify Class 2 occlusion? Because the maxilla is being pushed up and back, while the reciprocal force on the mandible is forward? Class 3 on the other hand might not be intuitive...but I described Progress’s claim that it’s independent of occlusion above. I might be reasoning wrong here. It’s late and I’m tired 🙂

By the way, I was thinking about this being correlation vs causation. What evidence do we have that it’s causation and not just correlation linking the temporalis size/usage/other characteristics and sagittal position of the maxilla? Any thoughts? I’ll think about it and update tomorrow if I come up with anything.

@qwerty135

Good point about correlation vs causation. Who is to say that the temporalis caused faces to lack vertical height or if faces that didn't grow downward caused someone to use their temporalis more since their mandible stayed in a retracted position.

Also, I know Class 3 is technically prognathism BUT it is prognathism of the mandible not the maxilla. So I wonder if I am more like the skull with heavy temporalis usage? My maxilla is non projecting and I never felt my midface was particularly long. Also, my palate was narrow when I started (like 36mm or so) and yet my temples have always seemed to have good development. Sometimes when I would try on sunglasses, they would fit tight at the temples.

Also, on comparing my face to others, I never felt it was too vertically long. So my maxilla is weak, my temples broad, my face seems not long, and also I feel like my skull is long from front to back. I think when I measured my skull a while back I came out to be hyperdolichocephalic (much more long than broad). But, my occiput while prominent isn't horribly rounded. I wonder if my prominent brow affects how "long" my skull is. My skull is mostly flat at the back but from above it looks more egg shaped as opposed to round. I wonder if I had a flat forehead would my skull measure as more short and broad rather than long and narrow?

Plus isn't a Class 3 maxilla pretty much like the overused temporalis one? CCW rotated, strong mandible projection, and overall short facial height with long ramus length? And of course the maxilla projects weakly in profile. Plus Class 3 cases usually have a narrow palate. Maybe class 3 cases use their temporalis too much? I gotta be honest I always felt my temporalis looked quite developed where my masseters non existent, even if I had a decent ramus length. 

@qwerty135

And actually wouldn’t biting up and back seem to rectify Class 2 occlusion? Because the maxilla is being pushed up and back, while the reciprocal force on the mandible is forward? Class 3 on the other hand might not be intuitive...but I described Progress’s claim that it’s independent of occlusion above.

I can visualize the maxilla being pushed up and back, but I'm skeptical of the reciprocal force on the mandible being forward. On the one hand, CCW rotation of the maxilla allows the lower jaw more space to project forward. On the other hand, if the mandible is continuously being trained to bite backwards, how does this new forward space ever become filled by the mandible?

Furthermore, my occlusion is such that the upper teeth at the front droop down in relation to the molars, and also procline forward. So, while biting backwards with my molars, my front teeth do not touch (they just hang over the edge of the lower front teeth). My question is then: would biting according to the temporal pattern (up and backwards for me) exacerbate the discrepancy between my molars and my front teeth?

Again, it's not my goal to dispute the theories being discussed here; I'm just trying to better understand them. For the record, I do think that Progress is onto something, because despite having a weak jaw, my masseters are fairly prominent (as confirmed by a myofascial practitioner), and my temporal region seems...under-developed (self-judgement, so I could be wrong here).

Posted by: @eddiemoney

@qwerty135

Good point about correlation vs causation. Who is to say that the temporalis caused faces to lack vertical height or if faces that didn't grow downward caused someone to use their temporalis more since their mandible stayed in a retracted position.

Also, I know Class 3 is technically prognathism BUT it is prognathism of the mandible not the maxilla. So I wonder if I am more like the skull with heavy temporalis usage? My maxilla is non projecting and I never felt my midface was particularly long. Also, my palate was narrow when I started (like 36mm or so) and yet my temples have always seemed to have good development. Sometimes when I would try on sunglasses, they would fit tight at the temples.

Also, on comparing my face to others, I never felt it was too vertically long. So my maxilla is weak, my temples broad, my face seems not long, and also I feel like my skull is long from front to back. I think when I measured my skull a while back I came out to be hyperdolichocephalic (much more long than broad). But, my occiput while prominent isn't horribly rounded. I wonder if my prominent brow affects how "long" my skull is. My skull is mostly flat at the back but from above it looks more egg shaped as opposed to round. I wonder if I had a flat forehead would my skull measure as more short and broad rather than long and narrow?

Plus isn't a Class 3 maxilla pretty much like the overused temporalis one? CCW rotated, strong mandible projection, and overall short facial height with long ramus length? And of course the maxilla projects weakly in profile. Plus Class 3 cases usually have a narrow palate. Maybe class 3 cases use their temporalis too much? I gotta be honest I always felt my temporalis looked quite developed where my masseters non existent, even if I had a decent ramus length. 

@eddiemoney Do you have an antegonial notch? What's your gonial angle?

And do you have an example of a Class 3 with CCW rotated maxilla and short facial height you could share? I usually see Class 3s with longer facial heights(especially lower 3rd), overly CW rotated maxillas, and high gonial angles/antegonial notches present. So I'd be interested in seeing if I'm mischaracterizing here.

Posted by: @qwerty135

Posted by: @eddiemoney

@qwerty135

Good point about correlation vs causation. Who is to say that the temporalis caused faces to lack vertical height or if faces that didn't grow downward caused someone to use their temporalis more since their mandible stayed in a retracted position.

Also, I know Class 3 is technically prognathism BUT it is prognathism of the mandible not the maxilla. So I wonder if I am more like the skull with heavy temporalis usage? My maxilla is non projecting and I never felt my midface was particularly long. Also, my palate was narrow when I started (like 36mm or so) and yet my temples have always seemed to have good development. Sometimes when I would try on sunglasses, they would fit tight at the temples.

Also, on comparing my face to others, I never felt it was too vertically long. So my maxilla is weak, my temples broad, my face seems not long, and also I feel like my skull is long from front to back. I think when I measured my skull a while back I came out to be hyperdolichocephalic (much more long than broad). But, my occiput while prominent isn't horribly rounded. I wonder if my prominent brow affects how "long" my skull is. My skull is mostly flat at the back but from above it looks more egg shaped as opposed to round. I wonder if I had a flat forehead would my skull measure as more short and broad rather than long and narrow?

Plus isn't a Class 3 maxilla pretty much like the overused temporalis one? CCW rotated, strong mandible projection, and overall short facial height with long ramus length? And of course the maxilla projects weakly in profile. Plus Class 3 cases usually have a narrow palate. Maybe class 3 cases use their temporalis too much? I gotta be honest I always felt my temporalis looked quite developed where my masseters non existent, even if I had a decent ramus length. 

@eddiemoney Do you have an antegonial notch? What's your gonial angle?

And do you have an example of a Class 3 with CCW rotated maxilla and short facial height you could share? I usually see Class 3s with longer facial heights(especially lower 3rd), overly CW rotated maxillas, and high gonial angles/antegonial notches present. So I'd be interested in seeing if I'm mischaracterizing here.

Most of the occlusal planes are flat and some CCW rotated toward the front of the maxilla.

But I retract my statement about temporalis usage and Class 3. I retract it fully. A Class 3 seems to be more masseter activated since it has CCW rotation near the front whereas the temporalis activated skull had the CCW rotation starting from the molars. 

And I know this because I just chewed on some carrots and bit backwards, and now feel my temples activated more. Also this may be placebo but I feel like my teeth fit better after biting backwards. I started combining biting forward and backward movements as opposed to just left and right. So now it's biting in all directions plus clockwise/counterclockwise transfer of food. I think from birth to 31 I only used to bite on the right which is why my face was asymmetrical and hypotonic. Lots of unused muscles on either side.

Maybe it isn't about which teeth to bite on but instead in what direction(s) the mandible pulls on the maxilla. I think people who have the best palate development will be able to pull their maxilla in all directions for it to grow to its full potential. The masseter pushes the maxilla forward, the temporalis pulls it down, and the tongue expands it. All of these actions move the maxilla away from the face while the facial muscles such as the lips keep the teeth from tipping. In the way the maxilla is able to be in its ideal position due to being moved in all directions in a balanced way. Sort of how you if you lift, you try and work all muscles equally.

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Maybe it isn't about which teeth to bite on but instead in what direction(s) the mandible pulls on the maxilla. I think people who have the best palate development will be able to pull their maxilla in all directions for it to grow to its full potential. The masseter pushes the maxilla forward, the temporalis pulls it down, and the tongue expands it. All of these actions move the maxilla away from the face while the facial muscles such as the lips keep the teeth from tipping. In the way the maxilla is able to be in its ideal position due to being moved in all directions in a balanced way. Sort of how you if you lift, you try and work all muscles equally.

Yeah, agreed. I think it's mainly muscle usage and signaling that guides bone growth and remodeling. And different muscles have different functions. Like, I don't think the tongue will do much for vertical or sagittal growth and positioning, at least not quickly or reliably in most people, as evidenced by the few and far between mewing results. It's different muscles that control those.

Chewing and using the mandible to affect the maxilla is interesting, in that a lot of people who chew seem to exacerbate their situation. Long faced people with antegonial notches get worse notches. Chewing seems to reduce the lower third size in short faced people. Yet the few mewing successes we have were chewers. Perhaps for most, chewing without thinking about muscle usage leads to falling into bad habits and worsening/exacerbating existing CFD, while for the few successes, something changed in their muscle usage and chewing became beneficial? I don't know. But I think we need to look into muscles beyond the tongue, and @progress is very correct in thinking about masticatory muscles like the temporalis/masseter relationship  in a new light. I don't believe nature would condemn adults to live with CFD forever: there must be some way of correcting CFD through muscle usage, strengthening hypotonic muscles, and we just have to find out which muscle(s) are important and correct whatever went wrong. Well, easier said than done.

Interesting to hear about your occlusion fitting better. Would you be able to tell if that was due to a change in sagittal positioning, vertical positioning, or transverse positioning? It seems similar to what Progress said above about his deep bite feeling less deep after engaging the temporalis for an hour in resting posture.

There's some interesting research into the type of chewing and its effect on bone structure in this paper ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724841200005X ). It talks about the anterior dental loading hypothesis, like what @maxiller and @progress were talking about with the towel chewing with the incisors and canines.

I believe one of the people depicted as having temporalis-dominant (or balanced) masticatory muscle activation is Henry Cavill. I recently took notice of his palate as being one that has wide intermolar width and narrow intercanine width, with retroclined incisors. I don't know if there's some official medical explanation for this but I believe it's caused by a tongue posture imbalance in which the posterior makes palatal contact but the tip of the tongue is hanging low in the mouth, allowing lip seal to pull the incisors inward. However I wonder if masticatory muscle imbalance would contribute to this condition?

Another example of a similar palate is Dolph Lundgren but interestingly his anterior palate is curving upward with no incisor tipping. This seems to somewhat play into the posterior pull/anterior push hypothesis with Lundgren possibly demonstrating what happens when only the mid-tongue is slacking but I'd be curious to hear alternative explanations.

@qwerty135

Regarding positioning the answer is: all of the above. Sagittal, transverse, and vertical positioning have all changed. My maxilla has its right side up higher than the left side. I would bite exclusively all on my right side and it didn't have any counterbalance. I have all but fixed my midline deviation but my upper right teeth from incisor to molars are all way up higher so my chewing backwards has made the upper teeth feel like they can move forward and down to occlude with the lower ones. This backward biting sensation has made me feel like the cusps of the lower arch as pulling the cusps of maxillary teeth down towards themselves whenever I bite. I feel like this aspect was missing in my chewing but it helps me to see how teeth can begin to self align. 

Posted by: @noises

I believe one of the people depicted as having temporalis-dominant (or balanced) masticatory muscle activation is Henry Cavill. I recently took notice of his palate as being one that has wide intermolar width and narrow intercanine width, with retroclined incisors. I don't know if there's some official medical explanation for this but I believe it's caused by a tongue posture imbalance in which the posterior makes palatal contact but the tip of the tongue is hanging low in the mouth, allowing lip seal to pull the incisors inward. However I wonder if masticatory muscle imbalance would contribute to this condition?

Another example of a similar palate is Dolph Lundgren but interestingly his anterior palate is curving upward with no incisor tipping. This seems to somewhat play into the posterior pull/anterior push hypothesis with Lundgren possibly demonstrating what happens when only the mid-tongue is slacking but I'd be curious to hear alternative explanations.

 

I gotta be honest and say these two men have very opposite palates to me. Cavill looks deep bite/retroclined Class 2 Div 2 with a CW rotation while Lundgren looks more masseter heavy with his front upper arch curving outward in a CCW rotation. Look:

Wouldn't even be surprised if he had a more Class 3 leaning. And from this angle you can see his incisors are far more proclined than Cavill. I chalk up to the classic Nordic vs British palate where Brits have more of the overbite Which Nordic don't tend to

Yes but they both have wide intermolar width and narrow intercanine width as opposed to a consistently wide arch. Why does that happen? Do they both have posterior-only tongue posture with the tip hanging low but Lundgren's anterior palate is like that because of his masseter action? I forgot that sucking on the incisors while swallowing could also contribute to retroclination, just to map out all the potential variables.

Posted by: @noises

Yes but they both have wide intermolar width and narrow intercanine width as opposed to a consistently wide arch. Why does that happen? Do they both have posterior-only tongue posture with the tip hanging low but Lundgren's anterior palate is like that because of his masseter action? I forgot that sucking on the incisors while swallowing could also contribute to retroclination, just to map out all the potential variables.

I started out with a relatively wide palate (41 mm), yet a low tongue posture/Class 3 edge-to-edge bite. What I suspect is that I had a proper swallow(I had atrophied buccinators to start out and never had to learn a proper swallow yet now I swallow without engaging my facial muscles improperly). That led to a decent intermolar width, but narrow intercanine width. Yet I still have a narrow-ish face, I suspect mostly because of weak muscle tone, which shows to me that intermolar width doesn't always correlate to facial width or forward growth.

Oh, by the way, I just remembered that yesterday I noticed when I turn my head to look left and right over and over(like when shaking my head no), I hear this sort of grinding sound from within my skull, from near the back of my head. It's kind of hard to describe. It's almost as if my skull is rubbing against my scalp/neck skin, or else like 2 bones are grinding against each other. It's not painful in any way, nor does it sound bad. Has anyone else felt this?

Also, I've been getting pops from within my nose sometimes when I tilt my nose upwards like I have a bloody nose. If I do it repeatedly, the pops repeatedly come. This does not sound anything like bone movement, more like some flap from within my nose is popping due to a pressure difference. But it only started happening recently, last day or two.

Has anyone seen these sensations start to emerge while engaging the temporalis or mewing? These sounds are encouraging, but I'm hoping to see actual bony change in the upcoming months 🙂

@noises

I don't know, I don't think their intercanine width seems super narrow. I mean it is hard to push on the canines with as much pressure as the molars IMO

Guys like Cavill or Lundgren I wouldn't classify as having narrow intercanine width. Average maybe, but I think Lundgren has decent spacing. Narrow intercanine width is seen in Michael Phelps otoh

He is another example of a CCW rotated maxilla with Class 3 dentition. His palate is narrow and he has a long face, but I don't know that his masseters are very developed. 

I have been thinking about this thread for a while now and I have some Ideas I'd like the share:

To oversimplify:

The Temporalis pattern is responsible for a wide and short face
The Masseter pattern for a narrow and long face
The tongue pattern is essential for a functionally wide and long palate fitting the tongue and all teeth, The skull to a degree forms around the tongue while the buccinators and lips hold occlusion of the teeth. However this doesn't account for the palates position forward/backward on the skull.

Now

Place your hands on the sides of your head as if you were blocking your ears but a little forward, so that the tips of your fingers touch the temporalis muscle and the bottom of your palms rest on the masseters. Now push your tongue upward and those muscles will activate in different ratios depending on your mandible position. This is a practical example but you will notice that backward pulling is temporalis dominant while jutting forward is masseter dominant.

Since bad habits with the tongue during childhood got us here in the first place, it has set a presedent for incorrect use of the masticory muscles Which we have brought into years of our development. We need to stop the spiral that we have set for ourselves.

Muscle wins over bone, and bone will adjust around muscle use.

Fix your tongue, fix your jaw placement, and everything will slowly fall into place. This is much easier said than done however, as the teeth have occluded to your habits, and now have to reocclude into a healthy muscle pattern. via tongue and chewing forces.

This all falls under the category of muscular posture, which translates into movement. Good movement is essential for functioning in a world where you and all around you is material. Even the non-material world of conciousness is affected by the material reality of its existence inside a braincase.

We need to come up with some practical methods now for curing different forms of CFD.

Chewing posture is ofcourse of paramount importance, it will be beneficial to overcompensate in the opposite direction of temporalis/masseter ratio to increase the rate of skull adjustment. Meaning if you are masseter dominant then you want to bite backwards, and vice versa for temporal skulls.

It makes sense that if one bites with their mandible jutted forward, they are activating the masseter pattern, It seems true that the forward position on the bottom jaw is where the top jaw would have to meet for that pattern of mastication to occur naturally. However, its impossible to bite with correct force through your teeth and into your skull from these artifical positions. Our CFD anatomies simply arent designed for correct mandible placement and it's bite forces.

But, you can use your tongue as the force that engages the muscles of mastication, this will also aid in the process of the palate modeling around the mouth, which is the basis of mewing, however mewing isn't nearly the whole picture here.

We can't bite, or chew properly, only improperly. Chewing comfortably in our anatomy will only set the bad habits harder, we need to chew as if we had a different skull, atleast, push the mandible forward as if the maxilla were set forward with it, or set the mandible back for long faced individuals. and now bite, or simulate a bite with the tongue pushing against the forces of mastication.

If the muscles activate as if the jaw is in correct alignment, then it will apply forces of correct alignment. Luckily, these forces are controlled by the jaw, and one can move the jaw freely within its ROM.

Now, chewing exercises. Mastic gum, towels, foods, whatever. Now you need to chew in your new uncomfortable, unnatural, but correct jaw position. I don't think the tongue itself will be purely sufficient to reshape the skull at any rate that matters, Since chewing applies much more force, and bone adjusts to force.

Overcompensating the mandible may be useful to get the process started faster however if you stick with it into real progress you will most likely just end up with the opposite CFD pattern than the one your started with, whats important is balance once you reach the correct anatomic skull form that fits your tongue and soft tissue format.

I wouldn't worry too much about occlusion as your tongue and lips/cheeks keep tipping in check provided you have correct enough mouth posture.

I don't know how long change will take nor do I know that this works

HOWEVER

I will given time, as I am experimenting with this hypothesis and correcting my body posture according to similar philosophies that @Progress follows, ie. Building an understanding and connection with the body and it's movement through focused and mindful exercise, stretching and active contorting. Hopefully this combined yields something of worth.

I hope at least that this post gives your mind something to play with

Posted by: @maxiller

I have been thinking about this thread for a while now and I have some Ideas I'd like the share:

To oversimplify:

The Temporalis pattern is responsible for a wide and short face
The Masseter pattern for a narrow and long face
The tongue pattern is essential for a functionally wide and long palate fitting the tongue and all teeth, The skull to a degree forms around the tongue while the buccinators and lips hold occlusion of the teeth. However this doesn't account for the palates position forward/backward on the skull.

Now

Place your hands on the sides of your head as if you were blocking your ears but a little forward, so that the tips of your fingers touch the temporalis muscle and the bottom of your palms rest on the masseters. Now push your tongue upward and those muscles will activate in different ratios depending on your mandible position. This is a practical example but you will notice that backward pulling is temporalis dominant while jutting forward is masseter dominant.

Since bad habits with the tongue during childhood got us here in the first place, it has set a presedent for incorrect use of the masticory muscles Which we have brought into years of our development. We need to stop the spiral that we have set for ourselves.

Muscle wins over bone, and bone will adjust around muscle use.

Fix your tongue, fix your jaw placement, and everything will slowly fall into place. This is much easier said than done however, as the teeth have occluded to your habits, and now have to reocclude into a healthy muscle pattern. via tongue and chewing forces.

This all falls under the category of muscular posture, which translates into movement. Good movement is essential for functioning in a world where you and all around you is material. Even the non-material world of conciousness is affected by the material reality of its existence inside a braincase.

We need to come up with some practical methods now for curing different forms of CFD.

Chewing posture is ofcourse of paramount importance, it will be beneficial to overcompensate in the opposite direction of temporalis/masseter ratio to increase the rate of skull adjustment. Meaning if you are masseter dominant then you want to bite backwards, and vice versa for temporal skulls.

It makes sense that if one bites with their mandible jutted forward, they are activating the masseter pattern, It seems true that the forward position on the bottom jaw is where the top jaw would have to meet for that pattern of mastication to occur naturally. However, its impossible to bite with correct force through your teeth and into your skull from these artifical positions. Our CFD anatomies simply arent designed for correct mandible placement and it's bite forces.

But, you can use your tongue as the force that engages the muscles of mastication, this will also aid in the process of the palate modeling around the mouth, which is the basis of mewing, however mewing isn't nearly the whole picture here.

We can't bite, or chew properly, only improperly. Chewing comfortably in our anatomy will only set the bad habits harder, we need to chew as if we had a different skull, atleast, push the mandible forward as if the maxilla were set forward with it, or set the mandible back for long faced individuals. and now bite, or simulate a bite with the tongue pushing against the forces of mastication.

If the muscles activate as if the jaw is in correct alignment, then it will apply forces of correct alignment. Luckily, these forces are controlled by the jaw, and one can move the jaw freely within its ROM.

Now, chewing exercises. Mastic gum, towels, foods, whatever. Now you need to chew in your new uncomfortable, unnatural, but correct jaw position. I don't think the tongue itself will be purely sufficient to reshape the skull at any rate that matters, Since chewing applies much more force, and bone adjusts to force.

Overcompensating the mandible may be useful to get the process started faster however if you stick with it into real progress you will most likely just end up with the opposite CFD pattern than the one your started with, whats important is balance once you reach the correct anatomic skull form that fits your tongue and soft tissue format.

I wouldn't worry too much about occlusion as your tongue and lips/cheeks keep tipping in check provided you have correct enough mouth posture.

I don't know how long change will take nor do I know that this works

HOWEVER

I will given time, as I am experimenting with this hypothesis and correcting my body posture according to similar philosophies that @Progress follows, ie. Building an understanding and connection with the body and it's movement through focused and mindful exercise, stretching and active contorting. Hopefully this combined yields something of worth.

I hope at least that this post gives your mind something to play with

How are you supposed to chew with your jaw jutted out?

Posted by: @jungeradonis

How are you supposed to chew with your jaw jutted out?

The same as you would regularly just with your jaw jutted

I understand what you mean though, It's extremely uncomfortable especially around the anterior teeth. and pretty ineffective as the teeth dont serve their function nearly as well, Like I said for most of us the way our teeth occlude comfortably isnt correct in relation to the musculature, if we dont change it we'll keep enforcing the situation.

The chewing exercise I mentioned earlier in the thread is what I mean

Posted by: @maxiller

Get a flannel or a towel, roll it up, and bite into it with the whole front complex of your dentition, apply as much pressure as youre comfortable with, "chew" it. I have experiences strong sensations around all the areas I am deficient in namely, around my nose, under my eyes and in my inner zygos. Right at the sutural connections. You can apply some pull to further simulate how the front teeth were intended to be used.

This alters the chewing musculature ratio into more masseter dominance but not by much (from overbite to edge to edge), but to overcompensate into a class 3 is extremely uncomfortable on teeth when biting into anything tough.

I don't know, push through the pain, edge to edge for less dramatic muscle use or rely on the force of your tongue with your jaw jutted or pulled back to tip the ratio into a more favourable one without chewing forces accelerating change.

There's no easy answer and everyone's case is different, seems most here have down-recessed masseter-dominant faces while I have an upward recession from hyperactive temporalis, Which gave me headaches btw so watch for that.

I know thats a lot for a single sentence question but fuck it

So if temporalis activation leads to a longer skull, it seems Vin Diesel has that shape. But his face is also strongly downward grown and his masseters don't seem to have created prognathism since his profile has negative projection.

The Rock has a skull that looks like it is shaped by masseter activity (flat and tall) yet his jaws seem ideally aligned (orthognathic) and he has a shorter face than Vin Diesel. I don't know what may be happening here.

As a side note it's very interesting that these Hollywood leading male action stars have 0 brow projection and have flat near bulbous foreheads. Scarlett Johansson has a stronger forehead slope than either of these guys. 

@eddiemoney

It looks like vin lacks much of either masseter or temporalis and as such seems to have developed neither forward or upward or much of anywhere, I would bet his tongue is slack. He's a good example of underdevelopment.

He's also a complete fkwit of a person and I wonder if the two are correlated, if his brain would work properly if he grew right. I've observed myself that I have become more braindead after bad posture and orthodontic work throughout my teens.

It's interesting that mr. johnson doesn't appear to have projected temporal muscles either, but has good masseters. and has a higher than ideal but not unnatractive gonial angle. He has good width in his face, I have a feeling his tongue posture is good and he's only underdeveloped from lack of chewing. Which might explain the lack of brow ridge too

Posted by: @maxiller

@eddiemoney

It looks like vin lacks much of either masseter or temporalis and as such seems to have developed neither forward or upward or much of anywhere, I would bet his tongue is slack. He's a good example of underdevelopment.

He's also a complete fkwit of a person and I wonder if the two are correlated, if his brain would work properly if he grew right. I've observed myself that I have become more braindead after bad posture and orthodontic work throughout my teens.

It's interesting that mr. johnson doesn't appear to have projected temporal muscles either, but has good masseters. and has a higher than ideal but not unnatractive gonial angle. He has good width in his face, I have a feeling his tongue posture is good and he's only underdeveloped from lack of chewing. Which might explain the lack of brow ridge too

 

The brow grows from chewing?? I have a prominent brow (much more than either of these two) and I barely chew. It was never a habit of mine and that hasn't changed. I thought brow projection was just genetic?

@maxiller

...if the two are correlated, if his brain would work properly if he grew right.

I have nothing to say regarding Vin Diesel, but I have previously wondered about the possible impact of facial bone development on the brain and cognition. I see two possible mechanisms:

1. Poor facial development frequently causes a sub-optimal airway, which compromises breathing, and this, over a sufficiently long period of time causes a decline in cognitive function. I don't have the time to look for them now, but there are several research studies which demonstrate that insufficient breathing (which most people suffer from, probably), and the constant breathing of stale air (if you never open windows in your house) can lower IQ over a period of months and years. Users of this forum will be most concerned with how a good posture can improve breathing, but it is worth mentioning on a side note that we often spend a great deal of our time in indoor environments which have higher-than-healthy levels of CO2 (1,000 - 2,000 ppm, when they should be 250-400 ppm). This is an overlooked issue, but it has an effect, too. Anyway, from personal experience I've observed that, after mewing improved my breathing, my episodes of brainfog and early-morning-grogginess also became less frequent, and less severe.

2. Poor development compromises the growth of the skull in such a way that the brain doesn't have enough room to grow, and / or is forced to grow differently. I have no idea if this is true, but if it is, then my guess would be that the effect of this mechanism has to be limited, because the vast majority of people who suffer from CFD - even severe CFD - aren't mentally challenged. Still, it could be that poor skull development restricts a person's ability to reach their cognitive, genetic potential.

I've observed myself that I have become more braindead after bad posture and orthodontic work throughout my teens.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but there are many factors that can affect a person's cognitive development throughout teenage years. Bad posture (+ insufficient breathing) is a major possible factor, certainly, but there's a great deal of things that we do as teenagers that we consider par-for-the-course, but which actually hurt us: insufficient sleep (6 hours is NOT enough for most people), poor diet, smoking marijuana (I'm not making a judgement about adults smoking weed, cause hell, I do it from time to time, but we do know now that children who begin smoking it before their brain fully develops around 25 do not develop to the same cognitive level as their counterparts who have not smoked MJ as teenagers), frequent watching of pornography (I expect that this will be unpopular here, so Google "porn hypofrontality" if you don't believe me). All these things can add up, and when we engage with them as teenagers while our brains are still growing, they affect us more so than adults.

It's interesting that mr. johnson doesn't appear to have projected temporal muscles either, but has good masseters. and has a higher than ideal but not unnatractive gonial angle. He has good width in his face, I have a feeling his tongue posture is good and he's only underdeveloped from lack of chewing. Which might explain the lack of brow ridge too

Yeah, it could be, but I think that the lack of a brow ridge could also be a result of his ethnicity or just his own, individual genetics. I had a Greek co-worker who had great facial development, with no CFD that I could spot, and he still lacked a brow ridge. Funnily enough, the profile view of his face looked much like that of an ancient Greek statue. Sort of like this, but with a more prominent jawline:

@Progress @EddieMoney

I have a slight overbite and receding chin. In order to activate the temporal pattern I have to excaberate my overbite and further receed my chin as I move my mandible inwards.

Wouldn't this be bad as it might help to accentuate my deficiencies by spending so much time in this position? (my overbite and receding chin)

@authority

That was the question that I meant to get across in my previous posts, but you've articulated it much better. I'm in the same boat as you.

@eddiemoney

I believe incisor/canine contact is a strong component for both prognathic jaws and a defined brow ridge

Does your class 3 mean your chewing pattern is more frontal?

Earlier in the post was cited a paper "The Anterior Dental Loading Hypothesis" which is a very interesting read
Also the wikipedia for Brow Ridge is insightful

Nvm.