Well... I've tried photoshopping myself to what is (at the very least) a way better facial structure and it's honestly shocking! Would a result this good even be possible through corrective jaw surgery or should I just go straight to a plastic surgeon? Because now I've seen this, I am determined to do anything to achieve this.

I think that is too much for mewing but I'm not a specialist...

And in my opinion your face is too short in the second photo. ideal would be to reduce maybe half of what you did.

You seem to have underbite, which is an occlusal position from which improving cranial shape is possibly easier than from overbite. At the age of 18, you should still be able to progress quite fast, should you learn to mew properly. The picture you have photoshopped is likely close to how you would look with a more ideal structure,  but whether or not it is attainable even by surgery is hard to answer. If I were you, I would first give tongue posture a good try for 1-2 years, because improving structure this way will bring other benefits that surgery will not necessarily be able to. There are also people like @greensmoothies who have managed to manipulate their skulls by using their own hands.

Posted by: Progress

You seem to have underbite, which is an occlusal position from which improving cranial shape is possibly easier than from overbite. At the age of 18, you should still be able to progress quite fast, should you learn to mew properly. The picture you have photoshopped is likely close to how you would look with a more ideal structure,  but whether or not it is attainable even by surgery is hard to answer. If I were you, I would first give tongue posture a good try for 1-2 years, because improving structure this way will bring other benefits that surgery will not necessarily be able to. There are also people like @greensmoothies who have managed to manipulate their skulls by using their own hands.

I'm definitely not into the idea of getting surgery without treating underlying causes, but why not both surgery and mewing? I tend to give up quickly when I don't see results fast, and changing the cranial shape through just mewing (and face pulling) is a long process and usually not a complete solution. I guess I should just wait a while, in the meanwhile practice stopping mouth breathing completely, fixing posture and mewing, and hear from professionals how likely surgery can change my facial shape to my ideal picture. Thank you for replying!

Before you go down the surgery route, I just wanted to say I think you’re stunning now. I actually think you look a bit more bland in the second pic, a bit more forgettable, a bit less ‘interesting beauty’. I just think it would be sad if you had surgery and gained the aesthetic perfection you aspire to and then realised you’d lost something rarer. I’d be very happy to look like you! Mew talks about us ‘losing our tribal uniformity’ like that’s a bad thing but actually, the more time I spend on these forums, the more I’m thinking that unique, maths-defying good looks are something to be celebrated, and I think, a marker of civilisation. By all means develop good, healthy habits but we are all shaped by our lives and habits and environments. We don’t want to live as we did hundreds of years ago, why would we want to look as we did then? (I also kind of think the very forward maxilla can look a little monkey ish at worst, or sometimes a bit arrogant looking) 

Plus I don’t think perfect-looking people have the best lives or are the most secure. Perfect beauty is definitely not what I would want for my children; it must be very hard to find genuine love in those circumstances. I’m generally quite a critical / analytical / ‘cold fish’ kind of person (hence being on here I guess) and can be quite harsh in assessing looks. But for all the self hatred I’ve read about I haven’t seen one picture of a person whose looks would occlude them from leading normal happy, loved lives. Lack of self esteem can definitely rule out those things though. But you’re young, lack of confidence is often part of that, but honestly I promise you, you will look back on old photos  one day and realise you are lovely now (my mum told me that and I didn’t believe her, but it turned out to be true and it will surprise you how much it’s true, like looking back at a totally different person to the one you thought you saw at the time). Just mew for a bit, give your face time naturally before you make any permanent decisions. Chew it over :) 

Ps your hair is to dye for - would pay serious amounts for that colouring!

Posted by: Liquidlips1

Before you go down the surgery route, I just wanted to say I think you’re stunning now. I actually think you look a bit more bland in the second pic, a bit more forgettable, a bit less ‘interesting beauty’. I just think it would be sad if you had surgery and gained the aesthetic perfection you aspire to and then realised you’d lost something rarer. I’d be very happy to look like you! Mew talks about us ‘losing our tribal uniformity’ like that’s a bad thing but actually, the more time I spend on these forums, the more I’m thinking that unique, maths-defying good looks are something to be celebrated, and I think, a marker of civilisation. By all means develop good, healthy habits but we are all shaped by our lives and habits and environments. We don’t want to live as we did hundreds of years ago, why would we want to look as we did then? (I also kind of think the very forward maxilla can look a little monkey ish at worst, or sometimes a bit arrogant looking) 

Plus I don’t think perfect-looking people have the best lives or are the most secure. Perfect beauty is definitely not what I would want for my children; it must be very hard to find genuine love in those circumstances. I’m generally quite a critical / analytical / ‘cold fish’ kind of person (hence being on here I guess) and can be quite harsh in assessing looks. But for all the self hatred I’ve read about I haven’t seen one picture of a person whose looks would occlude them from leading normal happy, loved lives. Lack of self esteem can definitely rule out those things though. But you’re young, lack of confidence is often part of that, but honestly I promise you, you will look back on old photos  one day and realise you are lovely now (my mum told me that and I didn’t believe her, but it turned out to be true and it will surprise you how much it’s true, like looking back at a totally different person to the one you thought you saw at the time). Just mew for a bit, give your face time naturally before you make any permanent decisions. Chew it over :) 

Ps your hair is to dye for - would pay serious amounts for that colouring!

What an absolutely beautiful and thoughtful reply! 

Actually, it was your post that inspired me to make this account and share this story with others. I guess grass is always greener on the other side, because seeing your picture made me feel the same way: you're beautiful!

This whole "non-perfect maxilla = unintelligent looking, ugly person" stigma sadly surrounding Mew's work (not this community, which I deem to be overall really supportive and helpful!) is really easy to get lost in if you're spending hours a day researching it. I definitely had those moments and guilt-tripping yourself about being a stupid mouth breather is so so toxic. I'd hate looking in the mirror every day, pointing out all of the things that could be better and living my life towards the day I'll finally look "acceptable". We are indeed worthy and capable of (self)love and loving, even if we don't have the best face. All around us are people who are praised for their beauty but still have flaws. Beauty is very subjective, and like you said, having a mathematical cut-out of what a face should look like makes you forget that sometimes. 

I had my doctor's appointment yesterday and she referred me to a jaw physiotherapist (which I had never heard of before), and which I don't think is needed since I'm not in pain, but at least they are skilled and will be able to figure out what is best for me. 

Between starting this thread and right now, I am realizing the importance of good posture which I've never quite cracked until now. My muscles are aching from correcting my posture all day long every time I notice myself dropping forward and I gotta say, it feels GOOD! A good posture makes for a confident stance and just like you said, confidence is so important! I will be doing my best to keep a positive mindset and to keep mewing. What wants to happen in the future will happen. For now, I'll take life one day at a time.

Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to write this for me! And thank you for the compliment about my hair! I'd like to take it as an example: what once was a flaw for me, turned out to be something I really like now. 

just a question some have a lengthen maxilla but you have a lengthen Ramus what is the cause of this and does anybody know ?

@mr-mewing 

From a post I found here: /community/community/main-forum/ramus-length/ I figure this is because of my bruxism. I don't know if it is severe so I didn't disclose it.

If you want to fix your condition now do it. Dont wait 2 years lmao. Dont fool urself with that unique beauty bs upthere. Stand up for urself and what you want and go get it. Else ur going to be on here like him when ur 40 fooling urself and others with self love bla bla even tho you'd treat urself in a second if u were given the chance. Truth hurts and reality is harsh. That's it. You are beautiful the way you are and other people would love to look like you but you re still searching to be better. That's what keeps us going forward. We live in a society full of mirrors and looks do matter. You can't defy reality. Point blank period. I'm not saying you should lack self esteem, there's never a reason for that, I'm in the same situation as you are with an underbite. But I view my underbite with reality and for what it is. Not in a lovey dovey unique beaty way that's going to keep you fooling urself from being a better version of yourself. Go get it. Now

@Roflcopters Reality IS harsh. I never said it wasn’t. But if you think achieving mathematically perfect good looks are going to change your life in any meaningful way you’re the one that’s deluded. Looks do matter, sure. But they can only take you so far, in certain ways, and there are some things that it actually hinder (like finding a partner who likes you as more than an accessory). If you fix your underbite, it’s not like you’re suddenly going to be offered fame, fortune and free ice cream wherever you go. Probably no one will notice; the only person who cares about it is you. The only real positive that could come of fixing it, is to help solve particular insecurity. ‘Self love bla bla’ but that’s what it comes down to, for all of us. Unfortunately, despite the costs and risks involved, surgery does not guarantee self esteem at the end of it.    

And as Y mentioned she used to hate her hair but now loves it, it seems sensible to wait before surgery to ensure the same doesn’t happen with her face, especially while she’s young and still changing. She said she had felt disgusted by her appearance; well clearly her looks don’t warrant that in the slightest, so her own mirror has been distorted. She also said her mental health has been improving so it certainly seems worthwhile to wait and see how that plays out before the physical bashing and the mental head**** involved with having your face change suddenly and permanently. Mewing MAY offer a solution to her perceived problem and DOES offer improved posture and the health benefits that incurs; it seems a better option for now and maybe for later too. It’s only my opinion but improving my own health in ways that include mewing has improved my own self-esteem and that’s real, free, risk-free and no small thing.  

And again - ‘Self love bla bla’? It was insane self love that got the US president where he is (or was it his facial perfection…?!). For better or worse self love is the most powerful currency we have.

PS I wouldn’t ‘treat myself in a second.’ I have the money, I COULD get whatever treatment in a second. I haven’t for one reason: I have no desire to pay to potentially damage myself physically or mentally. The desire to ‘be better’ is natural for sure and can be admirable - but I’ve seen enough pics of people who’ve gone too far with surgery to know the result of ‘Go. Get it. Now’  aren’t pretty. On the other hand, those that improve themselves quietly and consistently, through good health, good posture, good humour, actually being interesting human beings -  personally those are the people I find hot :)  

@Y. Thanks for your reply :) Clearly Roflcopters has me down as a hippy dippy 'isn't everyone beautiful' type - but just wanted to say that there's no bs on my part  -  quite the reverse, I don't post a lot on here but the reason I commented on yours was BECAUSE I can be quite critical but  was genuinely shocked in your case, to see your pic accompanied by talk of being disgusted by your looks.   

In my case, and despite being a mouth breather, I actually think my looks have improved over the years. I'm not sure why because I've had extractions, braces, and always had open mouth and lips -  plus as a teenager my face was already on the long side; by rights, and by Mew's thinking, my face should be longer than a horse's by now.  But somehow, it's not. I think I look better  now at 40  then i was as a teen or in my 20s. And it's not just in my head, I found a pic from 10 years ago and noticed my smile used to be a lot gummier than I can even manage now. Something's changed and I'm not sure why. My tongue does naturally sit on the roof of my mouth, but really only the front and not with any pressure so I can't believe it's that alone.  But it does prove things can change, and for the better. The fact that you're aware of good posture so young will help masses I'm sure.

Good luck with your  jaw physio.  I've also had physio (for unrelated body things) and similarly obsessed with posture at the moment. Yoga also. Feels good :)   

Posted by: Liquidlips1

@Roflcopters Reality IS harsh. I never said it wasn’t. But if you think achieving mathematically perfect good looks are going to change your life in any meaningful way you’re the one that’s deluded. Looks do matter, sure. But they can only take you so far, in certain ways, and there are some things that it actually hinder (like finding a partner who likes you as more than an accessory). If you fix your underbite, it’s not like you’re suddenly going to be offered fame, fortune and free ice cream wherever you go. Probably no one will notice; the only person who cares about it is you. The only real positive that could come of fixing it, is to help solve particular insecurity. ‘Self love bla bla’ but that’s what it comes down to, for all of us. Unfortunately, despite the costs and risks involved, surgery does not guarantee self esteem at the end of it.    

And as Y mentioned she used to hate her hair but now loves it, it seems sensible to wait before surgery to ensure the same doesn’t happen with her face, especially while she’s young and still changing. She said she had felt disgusted by her appearance; well clearly her looks don’t warrant that in the slightest, so her own mirror has been distorted. She also said her mental health has been improving so it certainly seems worthwhile to wait and see how that plays out before the physical bashing and the mental head**** involved with having your face change suddenly and permanently. Mewing MAY offer a solution to her perceived problem and DOES offer improved posture and the health benefits that incurs; it seems a better option for now and maybe for later too. It’s only my opinion but improving my own health in ways that include mewing has improved my own self-esteem and that’s real, free, risk-free and no small thing.  

And again - ‘Self love bla bla’? It was insane self love that got the US president where he is (or was it his facial perfection…?!). For better or worse self love is the most powerful currency we have.

PS I wouldn’t ‘treat myself in a second.’ I have the money, I COULD get whatever treatment in a second. I haven’t for one reason: I have no desire to pay to potentially damage myself physically or mentally. The desire to ‘be better’ is natural for sure and can be admirable - but I’ve seen enough pics of people who’ve gone too far with surgery to know the result of ‘Go. Get it. Now’  aren’t pretty. On the other hand, those that improve themselves quietly and consistently, through good health, good posture, good humour, actually being interesting human beings -  personally those are the people I find hot :)  

@Roflcopters Reality IS harsh. I never said it wasn’t. But if you think achieving mathematically perfect good looks are going to change your life in any meaningful way you’re the one that’s deluded. Looks do matter, sure. But they can only take you so far, in certain ways, and there are some things that it actually hinder (like finding a partner who likes you as more than an accessory).

Lol. I don't think i mentioned mathematically perfect good looks in my post at all, nor that it'd change my life. what changes your life is purposes. Wanting to achieve purposes and getting it done and getting it done well. Happiness is a byproduct of function. I didn't tell her to get surgery lmao. She did photoshop herself though.. to a version of herself she would  like to achieve, which is perfectly normal. Fixing her underbite and my underbite isn't just about looks, if she doesn't do anything about it or if i don't do anything about it how am i going to be in 2 or 10 years? Am i going to be at peace with my inner me and fuck my underbite causing tmj and all sorts of body posture problems or, maybe if i go get help now maybe i didn't waste 2 years or more trying to accept something that's actually a health problem. We want to look better and be better and healthier man. We all do man.. The ones who don't, don't value themselves as much as they think they do. 

Looks do matter, sure. But they can only take you so far, in certain ways, and there are some things that it actually hinder (like finding a partner who likes you as more than an accessory). If you fix your underbite, it’s not like you’re suddenly going to be offered fame, fortune and free ice cream wherever you go. Probably no one will notice; the only person who cares about it is you. The only real positive that could come of fixing it, is to help solve particular insecurity. ‘Self love bla bla’ but that’s what it comes down to, for all of us. Unfortunately, despite the costs and risks involved, surgery does not guarantee self esteem at the end of it.    

Thanks for agreeing btw. I also didn't say she should go get it bec she'd be offered icecream. Personally i do things for myself because they make me feel better. Because i live better and happier that way and because i have alot more to offer to my friends, family and the world that way. Because i like to keep being a better version of myself. Trying to accept something you don't like when you actually have a "solution" for it is just counter productive. It's just like an obese feminist i saw on youtube the other day saying she accepts herself and is perfectly happy and healthy, meanwhile after a few minutes in a debate she willingly entered, starts screaming at man for judging her when she got shook with facts about obese people never being happy or healthy down the road.

Also you're pretty much saying that people that look good are accessories.  If you let yourself be an accessory when you look good you'd let yourself be an accessory even if you didn't. Define looking good. You're effectively saying that people are shallow because they prey on people that look good? kind of.

People will notice, you will notice. You know that, don't delude yourself. 

I never talked about surgery. Self esteem has alot to do with of different factors that change from person to person and what they value the most, i agree. It's personal. Still, looks and health are amongst  the main factors :)

I got tired in middle of this, kinda late. 

Self love wasn't the term i should've used there. Unique beauty bla bla fits better. 

You keep mentioning surgery and i NEVER mentioned it. When i say go get it i say go visit an orthodontist, 100 diff ones if needed. Ask for no teeth extractions and for a facial, health and orthopedic approach to your treatment, that's it.

While you make good points i completely agree with, even tho i never said anything that is contrary to them, putting stuff under the carpet while you're aware of it is also not a solution. Encouraging doing is much better than waiting with your tongue in the mouth. 

@roflcopters

I'm definitely not sitting at home doing nothing. I know something is up with my face and having a breathing problem that could give me problems in the future, so I'm actively set on getting the right treatment (may it be braces or surgery). In the meanwhile though, between waiting for appointments, there's not much you can "go get now". That's why it was nice and calming to hear that even when you've just started out working on changing your appearance, you should still love yourself. I think this will only contribute to better results in the end. I totally agree with your statement that everybody should always try to improve. I will improve, it just won't be done in a week or a month. 

@Roflcopters I think we’re actually in agreement about a lot of things. Just that since she was talking about surgery and you responded go for it now, it implied you believed she should get surgery right away which, in my opinion, is risky. I don’t believe in burying anything under the carpet and know how painful it can be to hate your looks and how much energy can be spent thinking about what you hate instead of fixing it and getting on with your life.   I just wanted to point out that ‘fixing it’ can happen in the body or the head. One way is harder, but if it can be pulled off it CAN be even more worthwhile.

Because, as for unique beauty - that definitely IS a thing. As I said, it’s rare, rarer still in the public eye. But it exists and it’s powerful. When I read about Kate Moss who as a teenager ignored advice from agents to close the gap in her teeth, I don’t think ‘what a fool, she could have been an even bigger success’. I think instead that it must have been that stubborn attitude and distinctiveness that made her succeed ahead of thousands of other beautiful girls. I have a bit more respect for her.  Or to give a more every-day example, in my 20s I had a huge crush on this guy I barely knew; it was mostly based on his looks. He was tall, lean, very confident, very good looking in traditional ways, except that he had a VERY small mouth and gappy teeth; if I analysed him now in light of what I’ve learnt about orthotropics, I’d say there was something up with his maxilla. I’m not normally overly concerned with looks in the guys I like but god, I found this guy beautiful, I could have looked at him all day. For a while I even started fancying other people who weren’t as good looking but had a similar odd mouth features!   Yes he probably would have been good looking to a greater number of people if his mouth was more ‘correct’, but I don’t think he would have been half as memorable. It really made him unique.  

Unique beauty is not saying someone is beautiful when they are grossly overweight, unhealthy, or whatever. I’m still talking about beauty here. I’m talking about people who, like Y.  have traditionally lovely features in the main with a bit of a curveball thrown in somewhere. I’m just saying let’s not disregard everything ‘unperfect’ when sometimes that element can be what makes them most attractive. When perfect looking people have loads of self confidence it can come across as arrogant at worse or intimidating at best. When someone has great self-confidence despite a flaw or two; to me THAT’S fascinating.

@Y. You seem to be going about things with a great attitude. You’ll do just fine J

@liquidlips1, @doggos33. Glad we all agree then i guess. Words are tricky and interpretations are quite subjective. Especially when we're not giving it the most thought. I'm Portuguese and this isn't my mother tongue, it's hard to express stuff the proper way when you lack certain tools. It seemed to me that with your advice up there, the 2 years thing, she'd go down the road of "i'm just fine the way i am, it's all about self love". Yes she looks hella good to me aswell, i think i do look good aswell, but in my experience whenever i'm aware of something i need to fix, i can't just give it time, not if that isn't the solution to it. Personally i like to tackle it and solve it as well as it possibly can be solved. While i acknowledge self love is a huge thing, your consciousness also is. Consciousness is quite an evil one, especially when you mix it with a mind that likes to search for the best solutions.  Once we know we have a problem, we should treat it, not wait for it to treat itself and stay in doubt.

And i said what i said because these days.. we see so many passive leftist people that try to convince themselves and others that, we're all unique special snowflakes and we have to accept the way we are because we're just special and kids often FILL themselves up with doubt and think that treating themselves is shallow..look at that fat chick over there on instagram, she's so happy. she didn't lose weight and shes happy. i can do that aswell. most of the time that doesn't happen. 

You look beautiful.  If you make just even small changes, you'll likely be happy with them.  That's why appliances may work best.  Don't chew gum, chew hard or clench - it will advance your chin.  Tongue to the right spot can help.  You ended up with problems from low tongue rest position and open mouth.  Put your tongue up high to rest on the spot, and whatever treatment you do will last fine.  The right spot is where you feel happy.  At 18 it will be easy to change your face.  I'd consider surgery more if you were older.

Please send photos of teeth, palate and side smiling open.  :-)

Do you have an underbite?  I'm concerned your ortho just wasn't very good.  You can likely sue them since you're newly 18.  Usually statues are within so many years of turning 18.  I'd make them pay for it.  Too much $$$ otherwise.  Plus... if you have an underbite and they did anything to advance the lower chin, you likely would have a strong case.  Not a lawyer, though.  But, if I were in your jury, I'd award you enough for any treatment + college...  Sometimes you have to do a lot of shopping, though, as pretty much nobody wants to actually work for money.   Lawyers don't.  Orthos dont.  However, orthos need to get their heads out of the sand!  Keep any conversations about lawyers away from anyone who may be doing treatment.  The LAST thing they want to do it be a witness.  There's no money, so if you mention malpractice or damages, they'll scare.