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Example of excellent facial development with a 'kind of long' midface

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(@horatio)
Posts: 52
Topic starter
 

So I found this picture of a young Turkish officer on a forum I shouldn't mention the name of. This picture was posted because he looks very 'cromagnoid' for a Turk. The first thing I noticed was his excellent facial development, he basically looks like the prototypical 'Chad'. Obviously he hasn't the typical mouthbreather long midface but I would say his midface is barely shorter than his lower third. So I wanted to ask you, how does his maxilla contribute to this?

31qrsictrp041

 
Posted : 27/11/2019 5:05 pm
(@eddiemoney)
Posts: 1722
 

Can't really see his midface ratio with his head turned that way. His facial development seems fine and I include the potential midface ratio in that.

Do these people even know what Cromagnon means? Because Cromagnon skulls were much more compact in their facial height. This guy doesn't have features like the ones seen in those early skulls. His nose looks too long and he lacks the concave facial type. He looks more mesofacial where the Cromag skulls were brachyfacial.


 
Posted : 27/11/2019 7:22 pm
(@varbrah)
Posts: 282
 

What I think you mean is that he looks very European for a Turk, which isn't necessarily surprising given the pre-Ottoman ethnic composition of Anatolia, which many individuals continue to retain to varying degrees. He has a typical Europid phenotype. His maxilla contributes to how he looks due to its shape (genetics - brachycephalized European ethnic groups will not look like this) in addition to being properly developed (environment).

 


 
Posted : 27/11/2019 7:58 pm
(@horatio)
Posts: 52
Topic starter
 

@eddiemoney

They probably were trying to say that his phenotype would fit more in Northern/ Central Europe than in Turkey. And yeah, you said it yourself, his nose is too long for the typical cromagniform robust skull , yet  he still has an impressive gonial angle, overall jaw robustness . Compare him to German actor Götz Otto.

20191128 005341

He has textbook cromagnoid features all over him, including his short midface, still the guy in the picture doesn't have nothing to envy to Götz Otto. This is basically why I posted this thread, is it his maxilla that permits him to have that forward growth? Because I myself have a long midface and I suspect it to be the reason as to why I have a high gonial angle (apart from having a subpar maxilla obviously)...


 
Posted : 27/11/2019 8:06 pm
(@eddiemoney)
Posts: 1722
 
Posted by: @horatio

@eddiemoney

They probably were trying to say that his phenotype would fit more in Northern/ Central Europe than in Turkey. And yeah, you said it yourself, his nose is too long for the typical cromagniform robust skull , yet  he still has an impressive gonial angle, overall jaw robustness . Compare him to German actor Götz Otto.

20191128 005341

He has textbook cromagnoid features all over him, including his short midface, still the guy in the picture doesn't have nothing to envy to Götz Otto. This is basically why I posted this thread, is it his maxilla that permits him to have that forward growth? Because I myself have a long midface and I suspect it to be the reason as to why I have a high gonial angle (apart from having a subpar maxilla obviously)...

The German dude is brachyfacial and has a compact face in every way. It is short and wide simultaneously. 

The Turk has a medium length face and isn't very robust. Yes his forehead has a slight slope but he doesn't have a prognathic profile. The German does and you can tell just by how massive his mandible is. The Turk has a bit of a softer look with more soft tissue support. 

People see what they want to see but these two men look nothing alike at all and don't have similar facial proportions. Could he pass in Northern Europe? Sure that doesn't mean he looks "Cromagnoid". His skull isn't both compact and robust with overly coarse features. He is more gracilized with his narrower structure. His profile is more orthognathic and maybe slight retrognathic which isn't typical of Cromagnon skulls. Those skulls have maxillary bones that are very short vertically where this man's skull grew forward and down, not forward and up as much. 


 
Posted : 27/11/2019 10:41 pm
(@eddiemoney)
Posts: 1722
 
Posted by: @horatio

So I found this picture of a young Turkish officer on a forum I shouldn't mention the name of. This picture was posted because he looks very 'cromagnoid' for a Turk. The first thing I noticed was his excellent facial development, he basically looks like the prototypical 'Chad'. Obviously he hasn't the typical mouthbreather long midface but I would say his midface is barely shorter than his lower third. So I wanted to ask you, how does his maxilla contribute to this?

31qrsictrp041

His nose may be longer than that of a short compact face but the spacing between his eyes doesn't seem horribly close. 

As far as his middle third, it may be shorter than his lower third by just a bit, but as long as it isn't longer the symmetry of the face remains ideal. Once a man has a middle third longer than his lower third a few things may happen. If his midface ratio is long, he may look androgynous. If his midface ratio is ideal then he will look like a "pretty boy".

Adam Levine is a good example of a grown man with a weak lower third (he has a very short maxilla). His midface ratio is decent so his weaker lower third doesn't compromise his face into looking underdeveloped. He is considered just young looking if not a bit estrogenic but it doesn't affect his facial balance negatively. He just doesn't look robust at all (has an overbite, short jaw, retrognathic profile).

He is both brachyfacial (Class 2 type) and narrow faced. Whereas a dolichofacial male may have either a long midface or strong lower third, he has neither.

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Basically the thirds proportion isn't as important as midface ratio (distance from pupils to lips divided by distance between the pupils). Your lower third may not necessarily be the strongest but your midface can give you facial harmony. 

The guy you posted doesn't need to lengthen nor shorten; his harmony is close to ideal. The German fellow on the other hand may be better off with slight lengthening of his maxilla and better soft tissue support as the overall shortness of his maxilla makes his bony features look too protrusive. Where Adam Levine could benefit from slight lengthening via counterclockwise rotation, the German fellow could rotate clockwise and maybe gain more harmony.

The Turkish dude neither has an overly long or short face. Like you said, his lower third just barely overpowers his middle third but not by much. His midface ratio seems not too long either, making any added length of his face not wreck his face. Proportions matter vs raw measurements. 

Basically Turkish guy has a slight clockwise rotated maxilla with a near flat occlusal plane. His maxilla is neither too short nor too long vertically. It has ideal proportions. His bite isn't probably deep either due to the proportions of his philtrum to his chin (short chin with long philtrum equals deep bite). So in short his maxilla is just of a normal adult development. Not deficient but not overly projected as in the German dude whose maxilla probably is very short vertically. He probably has a counterclockwise rotated occlusal plane and a bite that is probably more open due to his philtrum and chin proportions. He isn't Class 2 Div 2 because his maxilla looks forward projected vs a recessed mandible (Adam Levine is closer to that type of profile). Instead his occlusal relationship may be ideal but with the CCW rotation and more than likely proclined teeth with a wide palate. Turkish dude probably has retroclined teeth but decent enough maxillary development (down and forward) that his mandible projects ideally. His lip seal looks superb just the same. 


 
Posted : 28/11/2019 12:23 am

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