It looks like your palate isn't as narrow or vaulted as many people. Is your intermolar width (between your first molars) 42mm as written on the cast, or is that the distance between your third molars? 42mm is close to the goal intermolar width when expanding for many patients who start out in the low 30s. If you have enough tongue space, it is possible you could make progress without an appliance. If you decide that you need an expander, I don't think there is anything magical about the biobloc. You could seek out functional orthodontists in your area who perform adult palate expansion and see what they recommend.

Posted by: Apollo

It looks like your palate isn't as narrow or vaulted as many people. Is your intermolar width (between your first molars) 42mm as written on the cast, or is that the distance between your third molars? 42mm is close to the goal intermolar width when expanding for many patients who start out in the low 30s. If you have enough tongue space, it is possible you could make progress without an appliance. If you decide that you need an expander, I don't think there is anything magical about the biobloc. You could seek out functional orthodontists in your area who perform adult palate expansion and see what they recommend.

 

42 mm is between the wisdom teeth.

But if you look at molars, the distance is less. Let me show you.

As you see below I measured it crudely, but you can see that the distance between actual molars is not enough. Especially since my face looks rather elongated (you can tell by the gonial angle in x-ray) and to balance it out maxilla width would have to be increased.

Question is - which device to use? My goal is to increase palate width, bring maxilla forward and upwards AND reduce gonial angle as a result.

Am I being realistic here?

As you see where I started to measure my molar, the first distance is narrow, only 35 mm, then increases to about 40 mm, but the wisdom tooth is maybe even 45 mm, but that is inaccurate since the wisdom teeth have not really fully grown.

Any EVEN if my palate width is relatively sufficient it is still recessed as you can see in x-ray and in real life my midface also looks flat and sunken. I would still need some type of an appliance to move it outwards and upwards.

Myofunctional therapist said I have enough space to fit my tongue on top of my palate, however she did not really tell me it will be possible to widen it much. Maybe 1 mm and that is it. Maybe she was just super conservative, not knowing how disciplined I will be in my exercises. 

Still, if it takes 5 years with myfunctional therapy to increase 5mm, when you can get the same result in less than a year with an appliance, why not just use appliance then and maintain with myfunctional therapy instead?

So it looks like your intermolar width is around 35-36mm. Generally speaking, this is a marginal width where it might be feasible to make progress from tongue posture alone with concerted effort, but an expander might make it easier. According to Dr. Mew, "modern adults (or anyone over the age of 9) tend to have a molar width of 29 to 34mm. Anyone with 35 to 38mm will find it much easier but still very hard to make progressive improvements without any formal therapy." The force vectors of an expander push the sides of the maxilla laterally. This can give you a wider looking smile with reduced crowding and bucal corridors. However, to move the maxilla anteriorly and/or superiorly requires force vectors pushing in those directions. The resting muscle tone of the tongue pushing up on the palate should be that force, and some people supplement with facepulling/extra-oral traction. In other words, using an expander alone isn't going to bring the maxilla up and forward, but it helps create the tongue space to achieve the correct oral posture that can have that effect.

Posted by: Apollo

So it looks like your intermolar width is around 35-36mm. Generally speaking, this is a marginal width where it might be feasible to make progress from tongue posture alone with concerted effort, but an expander might make it easier. According to Dr. Mew, "modern adults (or anyone over the age of 9) tend to have a molar width of 29 to 34mm. Anyone with 35 to 38mm will find it much easier but still very hard to make progressive improvements without any formal therapy." The force vectors of an expander push the sides of the maxilla laterally. This can give you a wider looking smile with reduced crowding and bucal corridors. However, to move the maxilla anteriorly and/or superiorly requires force vectors pushing in those directions. The resting muscle tone of the tongue pushing up on the palate should be that force, and some people supplement with facepulling/extra-oral traction. In other words, using an expander alone isn't going to bring the maxilla up and forward, but it helps create the tongue space to achieve the correct oral posture that can have that effect.

 

Interesting. Thanks for answer. I will inquire my myofunctional therapist about these options.

If you say the device won't move the maxilla upwards and forwards, then what about cases with DNA appliance doing just that? Take a look:

Source: http://www.dctmjsleep.com/the-dna-appliance/

and  https://www.zahnarzt-heidelberg-cmd.de/en/heidelberg-dentistry-what-we-do/orthodontics/dna-appliance

I would like to ideally get about 10 mm or 1 cm of palatal expansion and am already starting myofunctional therapy, but I feel like the therapy might not be enough or take way too long time. Would bringing maxilla forward and upward really not be possible with biolbock or DNA appliance type of instruments alone?

They have more cases where this change has happened and reduced gummy smile and improved airway:

As seen in picture above there have been obvious movements with use of DNA appliance. I understand that Biobloc functions in similar fashion so why could it not also achieve a similar result? What is the catch here? Because these women were case studies that did not have surgery, but just used the device and probably maintained proper tongue posture.

I'm not saying you won't see upward and forward movement as a result of using an expander. I'm just saying don't expect it to do all of the work for you. In my mind, upward and forward movement like the cases your posted above happen because the expander allows for improved tongue posture. Of course this is all just speculation, but I believe if you use an appliance to expand your palate but don't practice correct oral posture you won't see this kind of anterior/superior shifting of the maxilla, and your width will regress over time after you stop using the expander. If you have enough tongue space and consistently practice correct oral posture your tongue can do the work on its own. An expander just makes it easier, and I don't think which type of expander you use makes a substantial difference.

In your case, I would follow your instinct and find a way to get an expander, given your enthusiasm for using an appliance and your marginal intermolar width that would make it very challenging but not impossible to progress without one.

Oh I will definitely follow proper oral posture since that is why I will be having once in two weeks appointments with myofunctional specialists to make sure I am doing everything correctly.

I just need to understand which oral functional appliance would be best choice for movement of maxilla upward and forward.

Devices like the biobloc don't really move the maxilla forward. They mainly do expansion of the palate in order to give more room for the tongue to work properly. This expansion can give you better cheekbones but I have never seen someone say that expansion moved their face forward or fixed a gonial angle. Does your tongue work well for you or does it feel constricted? Can you mew well?

In the first before and after picture above the lady with great results is actually just looking up towards the ceiling in the after shot, look at her nose bridge angle. They covered up her ear with her hair to hide this fact.

And what does it mean to move the maxilla forward? You can't simply move one bone and have a brand new skull. You have to remodel every single bone and the soft tissue around it. You have to build a brand new skull. A device can't do this for you. You have to do it for yourself.

You said you've been mewing for a while. Have you been doing other stuff? Physical exercises? Diet? Etc.. Mew has great advice but his approach isn't holistic enough. I've spent some time in Mew communities and noticed that a lot of people who have weak faces also have weak bodies overall. There's a connection there. I know plenty of people who have huge tongue ties and have never heard of mewing who have great facial development. Anyways, just some things to consider.

My main point for going on that rant was one thing: I want you to understand that an oral device isnt a magic thing that will fix your face. Get expansion if you need more room for your tongue, otherwise you probably don't need it. However, as Apollo brought up, 35mm is right on the borderline so maybe getting a few more mm of expansion can help you mew better.

Devices like the biobloc don't really move the maxilla forward. They mainly do expansion of the palate in order to give more room for the tongue to work properly. This expansion can give you better cheekbones but I have never seen someone say that expansion moved their face forward or fixed a gonial angle. Does your tongue work well for you or does it feel constricted? Can you mew well?

For me tongue fits the roof of my mouth pretty ok. It is not perfect, but I can fit it. Myofunctional therapist said in my case I should be able to fit the tongue properly.

They mainly do expansion of the palate in order to give more room for the tongue to work properly

Ok, but what about the cases I illustrated above? Those were achieved with DNA appliance.

In the first before and after picture above the lady with great results is actually just looking up towards the ceiling in the after shot, look at her nose bridge angle. They covered up her ear with her hair to hide this fact.

Damn, that is sneaky.

And what does it mean to move the maxilla forward? You can't simply move one bone and have a brand new skull. You have to remodel every single bone and the soft tissue around it. You have to build a brand new skull. A device can't do this for you. You have to do it for yourself.

What about a face pulling device? Doing yourself means spending 10 years and maybe getting a few mm of advancement. Device means getting these results in one or two years. Big difference.

You said you've been mewing for a while. Have you been doing other stuff? Physical exercises? Diet? 

My diet is great and I'm doing bodybuilding as a hobby.

Alright so let's look at those DNA appliance results. Most of them are just camera trickery. The less gummy smile? Look at their upper lips: instead of curving up in a full smile, the upper lips are now going straight across, covering the gums. They are hiding their true smile in the after pics. It's a trick. And the camera is taking the photo from a higher angle as well, which hides the upper gums. It's all a trick. The women are either looking upwards to fake jaw growth, half smiling to hide the gumline, or doing some other trick to make you think the device is actually doing anything. Expansion it can do. Yes. The other results? Not so much.

If your tongue fits you should try mewing really hard to get expansion and push your face up and out. Do you mew hard?

Face pulling is kind of iffy territory. It can work but it's hard to get the results to become permanent. It's like pulling a rubber band - you can stretch it a bit, but then when you stop everything snaps back into place. The real way to grow the skull is through natural methods that our bodies were evolved to respond to. It shouldn't take 10 years to get good results. Check out some of the pictures in the success story thread. See what you think.

As for your diet, what does it look like?

Posted by: Allixa

Alright so let's look at those DNA appliance results. Most of them are just camera trickery. The less gummy smile? Look at their upper lips: instead of curving up in a full smile, the upper lips are now going straight across, covering the gums. They are hiding their true smile in the after pics. It's a trick. And the camera is taking the photo from a higher angle as well, which hides the upper gums. It's all a trick. The women are either looking upwards to fake jaw growth, half smiling to hide the gumline, or doing some other trick to make you think the device is actually doing anything. Expansion it can do. Yes. The other results? Not so much.

If your tongue fits you should try mewing really hard to get expansion and push your face up and out. Do you mew hard?

Face pulling is kind of iffy territory. It can work but it's hard to get the results to become permanent. It's like pulling a rubber band - you can stretch it a bit, but then when you stop everything snaps back into place. The real way to grow the skull is through natural methods that our bodies were evolved to respond to. It shouldn't take 10 years to get good results. Check out some of the pictures in the success story thread. See what you think.

As for your diet, what does it look like?

So they are fraudin'? Is this even legal? What about airway improvement scans? Are those fraud as well?

If your tongue fits you should try mewing really hard to get expansion and push your face up and out. Do you mew hard?

What do you mean? Do I chew hard? Do I keep my tongue properly all the time? I try to.

Face pulling is kind of iffy territory. It can work but it's hard to get the results to become permanent. It's like pulling a rubber band - you can stretch it a bit, but then when you stop everything snaps back into place. The real way to grow the skull is through natural methods that our bodies were evolved to respond to. It shouldn't take 10 years to get good results. Check out some of the pictures in the success story thread. See what you think.

10 years for how many gains of mm change of maxilla movement? Some of those pics were pretty impressive.

As for your diet, what does it look like?

 

Oatmeal, onion, sausage and dark bread sandwiches in morning. Raw broccoli, greens, avocado, raw lean chicken meat, broth, greens, bananas, cottage cheese, mastic gum for chewing (2x a day).

I also take a shitload of vitamins. Here is my daily stack:

So they are fraudin'? Is this even legal? What about airway improvement scans? Are those fraud as well?

Yeah they are most likely putting out results that aren't truly indicative of what the device can do in order to try and sell more. I can't say for sure about the airway improvement scans, but anything that their device can do, a regular haas expander can do better. That's the kind of expander most people here are using or have used.

I don't know if it's legal or not, it's probably in a grey area. Just be careful of some of the stuff you find out there, there's a lot of fraudsters in the medical device arena and you have to be really diligent and do research to protect yourself.

What do you mean? Do I chew hard? Do I keep my tongue properly all the time? I try to.

Mewing and chewing are two different things. I see that you made a thread asking about it. I'll answer there.

10 years for how many gains of mm change of maxilla movement? Some of those pics were pretty impressive.

Most of those pictures in the success story thread took just a year or two because that's about how long people have known about Mew's work on a large scale. There's no way to say for sure how much change one person can make in however much amount of time because it depends on a variety of factors that are specific to each person.

Oatmeal, onion, sausage and dark bread sandwiches in morning. Raw broccoli, greens, avocado, raw lean chicken meat, broth, greens, bananas, cottage cheese, mastic gum for chewing (2x a day).

I also take a shitload of vitamins. Here is my daily stack:

http://i.imgur.com/vc1Hz73 jpg

Your diet looks very clean and full of nutritious and healthy foods but I do see a bit of room for improvement, especially if you want to get to the highest level so that you can make as much bone change as possible. If you want I can show you the links that I learned from so that you can do some reading for yourself and make up your own mind. It's a deep hole to climb into though with tons of reading to do, so if you'd rather not I understand.

but anything that their device can do, a regular haas expander can do better. That's the kind of expander most people here are using or have used

What is a "regular expander"? Just any mechanical expander? There are several ways to expand. Rapid, semi-rapid (1mm a week), slow.

 If you want I can show you the links that I learned from so that you can do some reading for yourself and make up your own mind. It's a deep hole to climb into though with tons of reading to do, so if you'd rather not I understand.

What improvements would you suggest?

What is a "regular expander"? Just any mechanical expander? There are several ways to expand. Rapid, semi-rapid (1mm a week), slow.

Most of us are using the expanders on bracesshop.net. If you go to the website, then click on english version, then click the button near the top that says 'active plates' then scroll down, you'll see the devices that most people have used. One is called 'active plate' and the other is called 'y-plate'. They are just haas expanders that any dental lab can make, but this website seems to be the only place to order them for now.

If you read around the links on the website near the bottom like FAQ and Impression process you'll have a lot of your questions answered I think.

As for the rate of expansion, that's something we are all still figuring out. There are some other good threads on this forum that go into this, try checking a few pages back in the catalog.

What improvements would you suggest?

First and foremost I don't know what your calories are like but I'd recommend eating tons so that your body has the energy it needs to make changes. The reason I am bringing this up is because I've noticed that most people these days really undereat because they are scared of getting fat.

Next I'd look into eggs, red meats, and organs for nutrition and hormonal support. This is important for making the facial bones malleable - they respond to hormones. Fatty meat is best. Dairy should be fatty too. Cottage cheese is good if full fat.

Your veg looks good. I'd look into more fruit options. Citrus is a good one, oranges/lemons, etc. Dried fruit, etc. These provide more energy for you. You can experiment with white rice and white potatoes if you want more variety in order to eat more food as well, both are great for you.

The key takeaway is to get your metabolism/energy and hormonal status up and high as possible so that your body can make changes with ease. The older you are the more important this is.

I've seen people who try their best to have the most excellent diet possible who would be better off if they just sat down and pounded a few tubs of ice cream in order to give their body the fuel it needs to build and repair itself. That's why most people cheat on their diets, because their body is trying to save itself.

I'm doing bodybuilding a bit, so I try to eat a lot. What do you think of SARMS like Ligandrol (LGD-4033) having affect on bones? I took that for two months to gain mass.

I've checked out SARMS a bit and they seem interesting. Did you notice any difference while you were taking them? I've read that they can have an effect on bones but I'd need to research it more deeply to be able to say for sure if they can help facial remodeling. What was your experience?

Another user on here mentioned that K2 was helpful in bone remodeling. After he took some he got a lot of palate expansion. I've always had the opinion that diet is more important than supplements but perhaps there are exceptions, and maybe supplementation can be important. But it's probably best to optimize diet first and cover all your bases before using supplements, otherwise they become a crutch.

The doses for studied therapeutic effects of K2 mk4 are something like 40,000% RDA. With good food you can get perhaps 200%. I don't know how such massive doses of a fat-soluble vitamin can be so beneficial and so harmless, but it seems to be like magic to some people. Some people dissolve K2 in coconut oil and rub in their balls for intense androgenic effects. I personally have not noticed much difference between not supplementing any and doing 45 mg / day for a while. I halted development of several cavities and coincidentally had slightly more energy, but that's about it.

That's interesting about people applying K2 topically. I've heard of people using red light therapy in that same area of their bodies for similar results. I've never experimented with supplementing K2 but I have noticed that when I eat foods that supposedly contain it, my teeth become very shiny. Were you able to reverse your cavities using it or did they simply stop progressing?

Posted by: Allixa

Your diet looks very clean and full of nutritious and healthy foods but I do see a bit of room for improvement, especially if you want to get to the highest level so that you can make as much bone change as possible. If you want I can show you the links that I learned from so that you can do some reading for yourself and make up your own mind. It's a deep hole to climb into though with tons of reading to do, so if you'd rather not I understand.

Hey, did you post those links, or was your subsequent reply containing all the info in the links? I don't mind climbing in to rabbit holes about these topics :-P

I believe nutrition is up there in importance as well and seem to have a similar philosophy there.

RE: probiotics, K2 - Some fermented foods are a good source of K2, although I recently purchased a K2 MK-4 supplement just to see what all the fuss is about, we shall see. I also take Vitamin C, E, MSM and D because I just can't get the therapeutic levels and certain effects from food alone. Every other day I take a prenatal for people with the MTHFR-gene mutation and hopefully have my bases covered. Definitely finding probiotics are a big component of maximising mew-gains, and they have a host of other benefits as well. Big mood-booster, for starters.

Maybe not ideal but I'm chewing on fennel seed candy lately, I'm hoping/guessing chewing crunchy foods like that may have some additional effect other than just chewing gum or "chewy"/hard food, open mouth for the effect some forum users are reporting, which relates to moving the maxilla up and out, I believe. I'd been thinking this and another poster here wrote this recently RE: crunchy food, so hopefully we're on to something. And I'm trying to eat more carrots and celery as well. Related re: fennel and fermented foods, here's a link:  https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/11/19/fennel-plant-prevents-bone-loss.aspx

Interesting about the ice cream, I eat it occasionally too but make it myself to eliminate the weird additives you can find in these products, also saves money. I'm not a keto believer, these types may not infrequently complain about things like seeing a piece of chocolate cake and wanting it. I'm lactating so I'm naturally going to be more hungry, yet I don't tend to get cravings even when seeing a piece of chocolate cake because I take sugar in forms like honey and blackstrap molasses on a daily basis. So if I'm a "sugar addict" as a keto advocate may say, I'm practicing harm reduction by shifting the sugar intake to more healthful forms (raw honey is a prebiotic, which helps with digestion and then bone building, blackstrap molasses is the most nutrient dense type of food sugar), rather than abstinence.

Something I noticed RE: appetite, mine increased along with starting my upside-down mewing protocol I'm (still) doing, and I go with it rather than fight it because I think maybe my body needs more energy to rebuild my bones...

RE: open-mouth chewing for moving the maxilla up and out, I noticed that my daughter, who is almost 2, will eat with her food with mouth open, haven't bothered to teach her otherwise yet, her maxilla is quite up and out but I would think that's mainly to do with breastfeeding.

You're onto something with the upside-down mewing idea. I've experimented with it and it's quite effective to use during times when it feels like I can't position my tongue properly. It makes finding the right posture effortless. But I've never tried holding that position for an extended period of time.

I was the one that brought up crunchy foods. I think they are as important as chewing gum. There's something about crunchy foods that makes your muscles respond in ways that they normally can't.

As for nutrition, I agree with probiotics, etc. But I have a very low opinion of keto and low carb diets in general. I don't think that these types of diets are good physically or mentally.

Links.. I have many I could share but I'll start off with just one. It might be the only one you need and it's certainly the best starting place.

www.perfecthealthdiet.com , They have a book as well which might be worth reading because it puts everything in one place.

The only note I can give about this link is that the author is very anti-wheat. Just keep that in mind as you read the stuff if you decide to dive in.

Posted by: Allixa

I've checked out SARMS a bit and they seem interesting. Did you notice any difference while you were taking them? I've read that they can have an effect on bones but I'd need to research it more deeply to be able to say for sure if they can help facial remodeling. What was your experience?

Another user on here mentioned that K2 was helpful in bone remodeling. After he took some he got a lot of palate expansion. I've always had the opinion that diet is more important than supplements but perhaps there are exceptions, and maybe supplementation can be important. But it's probably best to optimize diet first and cover all your bases before using supplements, otherwise they become a crutch.

Hell yes, I did. I gained 6 kg of muscle mass and could bench 120kg instead of 90kg. Within two months. It is pretty much steroid without steroid side effects. Except the testosterone suppression, but it recovers. However, if it strengthens bones, it might be even detrimental to moving. Stronger bones are less likely to move out, no? SARMs were invented to prevent muscle wasting and osteoporosis on elderly. I'm also taking K2.

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Stronger bones are less likely to move out, no? 

 

Sounds intuitive, but so does weaker bones wanting to resist change in order to avoid damage. It's not unreasonable to assume that better changes will be achieved when the body is in a healthy state, and whatever that is, does likely include having strong bones.

We could also ask whether the strength of the bone has much significance in this context at all. Bone strength = how big immediate force the bone can withstand without breaking. This kind of definition doesn't reveal much about how the bone will behave under static gentle forces.

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Hell yes, I did. I gained 6 kg of muscle mass and could bench 120kg instead of 90kg. Within two months. It is pretty much steroid without steroid side effects. Except the testosterone suppression, but it recovers. However, if it strengthens bones, it might be even detrimental to moving. Stronger bones are less likely to move out, no? SARMs were invented to prevent muscle wasting and osteoporosis on elderly. I'm also taking K2.

Sounds like really good results then. During the time you were taking them, did you do Mewing/Chewing as well and notice any change there, or was this before you knew of those techniques?

Now when you say that the bones are getting stronger, we have to find out if they are just becoming denser, or if they are actually becoming healthier overall like @progress hinted at. If the latter is the case then I could certainly see a situation arising where SARMs allow facial bones to move and remodel more quickly. There's definitely some promise there. I will do some deeper research and report back once I know more.

@le_fort_or_bust

Looks like you were right. SARMS can directly lead to faster and better bone growth. The study below says that SARMS increase bone formation activity. They also say that DHT does the same thing though, which is something you can create naturally within yourself via diet and lifestyle. But if you are comfortable taking SARMS then it might be something worth looking into while completing this face remodeling journey.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/26/11/26_11_1563/_article/-char/ja/

Posted by: Allixa

@le_fort_or_bust

Looks like you were right. SARMS can directly lead to faster and better bone growth. The study below says that SARMS increase bone formation activity. They also say that DHT does the same thing though, which is something you can create naturally within yourself via diet and lifestyle. But if you are comfortable taking SARMS then it might be something worth looking into while completing this face remodeling journey.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/26/11/26_11_1563/_article/-char/ja/

I did take Ligandrol and got some great gains for muscle strength and size. However, as for mewing. Apart from taping mouth shut, chewing Mastic gum a few times a day and doing my best to breathe through nose at all times... I don't really see it a viable method to get 1cm expansion and protrusion of maxilla. One of the FAGGA orthos from Germany confirmed that I would need 1cm maxilla forward movement. Maybe this can be achieved with FAGGA appliance, but in my country there is no ortho who uses these appliances, all they do is perform jaw surgery.

I feel a bit lost and disappointed. I will be mewing for years to come and maybe after 5-10 years I get some minor result from it, maybe not. But it simply is not comparable to palate expanders.  I wish there was a way for me to get this treatment in my country and just get it done once and for all. Proper mewing would maintain the newly gained width and spacing in its place. Orthos and dentists themselves said that in my case they would not suggest Le Fort II. Not because it wouldn't correct the missing 1 cm. No, because it is very dangerous and carries high risk + my recession is not major that would warrant surgery.

So apart from Le Fort II, I am left with:

1) Mewing (yeah, maybe I get 2mm once I'm old :( )

2) Palate expander or magical FAGGA device that would move maxilla forward ( still not fully tested, not available in my country) 

Should I really move to Germany or UK for something like this? Sounds very complicated, especially if it would require many visits. I would pretty much have to change my whole life to live in another country just for this one procedure of FAGGA appliance. I mean, there really is no other way?

Posted by: Allixa

What is a "regular expander"? Just any mechanical expander? There are several ways to expand. Rapid, semi-rapid (1mm a week), slow.

Most of us are using the expanders on bracesshop.net. If you go to the website, then click on english version, then click the button near the top that says 'active plates' then scroll down, you'll see the devices that most people have used. One is called 'active plate' and the other is called 'y-plate'. They are just haas expanders that any dental lab can make, but this website seems to be the only place to order them for now.

If you read around the links on the website near the bottom like FAQ and Impression process you'll have a lot of your questions answered I think.

As for the rate of expansion, that's something we are all still figuring out. There are some other good threads on this forum that go into this, try checking a few pages back in the catalog.

What improvements would you suggest?

First and foremost I don't know what your calories are like but I'd recommend eating tons so that your body has the energy it needs to make changes. The reason I am bringing this up is because I've noticed that most people these days really undereat because they are scared of getting fat.

Next I'd look into eggs, red meats, and organs for nutrition and hormonal support. This is important for making the facial bones malleable - they respond to hormones. Fatty meat is best. Dairy should be fatty too. Cottage cheese is good if full fat.

Your veg looks good. I'd look into more fruit options. Citrus is a good one, oranges/lemons, etc. Dried fruit, etc. These provide more energy for you. You can experiment with white rice and white potatoes if you want more variety in order to eat more food as well, both are great for you.

The key takeaway is to get your metabolism/energy and hormonal status up and high as possible so that your body can make changes with ease. The older you are the more important this is.

I've seen people who try their best to have the most excellent diet possible who would be better off if they just sat down and pounded a few tubs of ice cream in order to give their body the fuel it needs to build and repair itself. That's why most people cheat on their diets, because their body is trying to save itself.

I really like your posts on nutrition @Allixa

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Posted by: Allixa

I've checked out SARMS a bit and they seem interesting. Did you notice any difference while you were taking them? I've read that they can have an effect on bones but I'd need to research it more deeply to be able to say for sure if they can help facial remodeling. What was your experience?

Another user on here mentioned that K2 was helpful in bone remodeling. After he took some he got a lot of palate expansion. I've always had the opinion that diet is more important than supplements but perhaps there are exceptions, and maybe supplementation can be important. But it's probably best to optimize diet first and cover all your bases before using supplements, otherwise they become a crutch.

Hell yes, I did. I gained 6 kg of muscle mass and could bench 120kg instead of 90kg. Within two months. It is pretty much steroid without steroid side effects. Except the testosterone suppression, but it recovers. However, if it strengthens bones, it might be even detrimental to moving. Stronger bones are less likely to move out, no? SARMs were invented to prevent muscle wasting and osteoporosis on elderly. I'm also taking K2.

 

 

If you're into bodybuilding there should be no reason you should want weaker bones . That is just asking for trouble .

I can't say I noticed any difference in my bones after using LGD. It did help speed the healing of tendons and ligaments. Which was unexpected. Ostarine did nothing for them, and it has the reputation of being the joint friendly sarm. 

I will be undergoing second cycle soon, 10 mg LGD per day, for about 10 weeks. Will report how it affects me. I will be mewing throughout the whole time, chewing a lot and sleeping with mouth taped shut.

What is the difference between the Active Plate and the Y Plate? Also, is there one for the lower palate?

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

I will be undergoing second cycle soon, 10 mg LGD per day, for about 10 weeks. Will report how it affects me. I will be mewing throughout the whole time, chewing a lot and sleeping with mouth taped shut.

Sounds good, let us know how it goes.

Posted by: EddieMoney

I really like your posts on nutrition @Allixa

@eddiemoney thanks, I spent some good time looking into this stuff in the past. It seems like we have similar ideas.

Hi LeFort,

Perhaps the ladies from the pictures above did not have any surgery. But they might have had Temporary Anchorage Devices (TADs) for full maxillary dentition intrusion, which means they pushed all their upper teeth upwards into the bone. That is a common treatment for gummy smile. Also, if you are thinking of expanding, a great tool for achieving that is Damon braces. Although, it won't push the maxilla up, you can combine it with TADs for double duty performance: sideways and forward expansion and gummy smile treatment. 

One small caveat: in my case, Damon braces' forward expansion was undesirable. I had incompetent lips to begin with, so the forward movement made it even harder to close my lips and caused other problems. But for most people, it works wonders.

Hope this helps!

Valeria

I'm a guy not lady, but thanks.

How do damon braces differ from any other braces?

As for LGD cycle - worked great on muscles, but I stopped chewing hard gum, because bulging hypertrophied jaw muscles made my face look bulky and brutish (not aesthetic). I want that chiseled look. I had my doubts if overtrained jaw will look good and it definitely does not. It is rounded not sharp and angular, since muscle is soft tissue.

My orthodontist who is a high standing member of orthodontic association here in my location basically told me my palate cannot be widened anymore and I will just get teeth tipping if I try to.

To be honest, I'm not sure what to do. There is no orthodontist in my country to go to who can do this. The myofunctional doctors told me they can't guarantee any expansion in adults and that so far adults that went to them with breathing issues never got any expansion or anything.

I'm yet to see solid evidence of any of this working. There was one guy who claimed he widened the palate by mewing, but that is such a rare case. 

I'm losing hope and quite upset. My face would look so much better if only my maxilla was wider and more forward grown.

I might consult with Mike Mew, but I'm too old to be his client. Will have to agefraud lol.

FML.

@Apollo / anyone, do you know of any devices that assist in moving the maxilla forward?

Any progress report? Need upward and forward maxilla as well.

Posted by: WishIKnewSooner

Any progress report? Need upward and forward maxilla as well.

No, my ortho said expansion will tip my teeth and I'm yet to find an orthodontist who could achieve what I want without messing up my face. UCLANewbie has provided some very good arguments why the methods we think are "miracles" might not really be that revolutionary and effective in improving aesthetics, so I want to be triple sure I'm doing the right thing.

I visited myofunctional clinic in my city and they confirmed to me that while they do work with adults and have helped increase air intake with Buteyko method and stuff like that they have NOT achieved any aesthetic changes or widening of maxilla in adults. That is when I stopped visiting them.

Newbie here. I have a basic question ? How to get my jaw casts done ? Please share me the link to buy them (and instructions to get the cast done). Thanks

@vivek-pandian-sgmail-com You can ask a dentist to make them, either as a cast or (even better) as a digital scan.
Otherwise you can order the kits online (dental impression kit) but it's not easy to do it right by yourself especially without a lot of practice.