Unless you are totally confident in your oral posture, I would use the retainer, at least during sleep. Maybe several months to a year from now when the dental movements have cemented and you are confident that your posterior tongue is engaging your soft palate while awake, you could begin to phase out the overnight retainer use. It seems like the other option would be to use an expander during sleep rather than the retainer and turn the screw if you achieve expansion from tongue posture during the day, but I would assume that a conventional orthodontist would reject the idea of introducing an expander when they just finished aligning your teeth.

This Mike Mew video might be useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPlse4UoMLQ

Mew recommends asking your orthodontist for a fixed retainer on the top 4 front teeth and bottom 6-8 front teeth to prevent crowding but still allow the tongue to do its work expanding and shifting the maxilla up and forward (in conjunction with top and bottom essix retainers initially to stabilize the teeth before phasing them out when you are confident in your oral posture practice). Sounds like a good idea that a regular orthodontist might be amenable to.

@Apollo thank you so much for your indepth and helpful reply. So my orthodontist is pretty much a skeptic when it comes to things like mewing and braces changing faces, however he has successfully closed my bite with elastics and braces.

However, now my bite is closed, it still has not changed the issue of my canted smile, which i notice from having  lower lip, eye and cheekbone on the left hand side of my face. i like the idea of wearing my retainers at night only, however i am worried any success i get my expanding the left hand side of my palate from mewing will be ruined if i wear the retainers (which will have the mould of my recessed left hand side).

where can i purchase an expander from? i can look into this. will an expander, ruin my aligned teeth?

thanks again

hey thanks i watched this video but couldnt really understand (language barrier)

So i should get only in the beginning an essix retainer and then after this a fixed retainer on EITHER the top 4 or bottom 4 teeth?

so WITH retainers, both fixed or removable am i able to still benefit from expanding the palate with mewing??

Posted by: openbytes17

@Apollo thank you so much for your indepth and helpful reply. So my orthodontist is pretty much a skeptic when it comes to things like mewing and braces changing faces, however he has successfully closed my bite with elastics and braces.

However, now my bite is closed, it still has not changed the issue of my canted smile, which i notice from having  lower lip, eye and cheekbone on the left hand side of my face. i like the idea of wearing my retainers at night only, however i am worried any success i get my expanding the left hand side of my palate from mewing will be ruined if i wear the retainers (which will have the mould of my recessed left hand side).

where can i purchase an expander from? i can look into this. will an expander, ruin my aligned teeth?

thanks again

Check out the video from Dr. Mew that I linked above. I really think using the essix retainers initially to stabilize the dental movements and then relying on fixed retainers on the front teeth to prevent crowding while you intensively practice tongue posture could be the best option. I would only consider an expander if your intermolar width is so narrow that it prevents you from getting your tongue into position. The disadvantage of an expander is that it occupies the space on he roof of your mouth where your tongue should be and its acrylic framework maintains a lot of the asymmetry. My left side is narrower than my right side for example, and my expander has pushed the left side out a little farther, but it doesn't allow me to move the left molars farther than the left bicuspids. There is an online resource to purchase expanders, but it leaves you on your own without any professional supervision. I would see what you can do with your tongue unless you have a prohibitively narrow intermolar width.

Posted by: openbytes17

hey thanks i watched this video but couldnt really understand (language barrier)

So i should get only in the beginning an essix retainer and then after this a fixed retainer on EITHER the top 4 or bottom 4 teeth?

so WITH retainers, both fixed or removable am i able to still benefit from expanding the palate with mewing??

Here's an example of what a fixed retainer looks like on the top 4 teeth. They would bond a similar wire behind your bottom 6 to 8 teeth. This would maintain the general position of your front teeth but wouldn't occupy the palate and would allow your tongue to push laterally against the alveolar ridge above the back teeth. During the first few months you would wear the essix retainers over top of the fixed retainer during sleep to give the alignment from your braces time to settle in place. Then you would begin phasing out the essix retainers (maybe every other night and then a couple nights a week) while making sure that your tongue posture is correct and monitoring your intermolar width to be sure you aren't relapsing.

My issue with some retainers is if they finished your treatment with a narrow arch, the retainer keeps your arch narrow and prevents maxillary expansion.

I think the bonded retainers on front teeth are a better idea. Definitely no Hawley retainers either.

You are a life saver @Apollo THANK THANK THANKYOU. No issue with my intermolar width thankfully, my tongue sits comfortably in the back (however it didnt always so i know there has been some expansion). 

Im going to do exactly that, essix to stabilise and phase out once i feel comfortable. my ortho already suggested essix and fixed so hawley is thankfully out of the question @EddieMoney

I think with fixed on the upper/lower or both will allow me to continue expanding my palate without messing up my bite. THANKYOU

Hi @EddieMoney that is exactly my fear! and the reason i dont want to use my retainer at all. But as apollo suggested above, im going to just use my retainer to stabilise for as short a time as possible (just to adjust a little once my braces come off) then move onto fixed (im going to ask my ortho if i can get fixed on both top and bottom on as few teeth as possible) so i can continue mewing with retainers on. Let me know what you think

Posted by: openbytes17

Hi @EddieMoney that is exactly my fear! and the reason i dont want to use my retainer at all. But as apollo suggested above, im going to just use my retainer to stabilise for as short a time as possible (just to adjust a little once my braces come off) then move onto fixed (im going to ask my ortho if i can get fixed on both top and bottom on as few teeth as possible) so i can continue mewing with retainers on. Let me know what you think

Sounds good. When my ortho treatment ended they gave me a Hawley retainer. It just kept my arch narrow. And I also had elastics but that pulled my maxilla back even further than it was AND I was already recessed due to having an underbite when I begin. 

Needless to say I regret my expensive ortho treatment but at least it gave me the confidence I needed after I got it. But I wouldn't recommend orthodontics from most doctors due to the fact most have no idea what they are doing . the fact mine put me on elastics to recess me even more (with extractions) means my problems only got worse. I suppose the only good thing was that my side profile improved but not even to an ideal, just to bbetter than before

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: openbytes17

Hi @EddieMoney that is exactly my fear! and the reason i dont want to use my retainer at all. But as apollo suggested above, im going to just use my retainer to stabilise for as short a time as possible (just to adjust a little once my braces come off) then move onto fixed (im going to ask my ortho if i can get fixed on both top and bottom on as few teeth as possible) so i can continue mewing with retainers on. Let me know what you think

Sounds good. When my ortho treatment ended they gave me a Hawley retainer. It just kept my arch narrow. And I also had elastics but that pulled my maxilla back even further than it was AND I was already recessed due to having an underbite when I begin. 

Needless to say I regret my expensive ortho treatment but at least it gave me the confidence I needed after I got it. But I wouldn't recommend orthodontics from most doctors due to the fact most have no idea what they are doing . the fact mine put me on elastics to recess me even more (with extractions) means my problems only got worse. I suppose the only good thing was that my side profile improved but not even to an ideal, just to bbetter than before

I 100% agree and completely understand your pain, its crazy what these orthodontists are doing. Had i known about mewing and tongue rest posture i would have NEVER done orthodontics. I too have elastics which has recessed my chin, have you managed to get any forward growth and do you still use your retainer?

i guess the only good side to my story is i havent had any extractions

Posted by: openbytes17

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: openbytes17

Hi @EddieMoney that is exactly my fear! and the reason i dont want to use my retainer at all. But as apollo suggested above, im going to just use my retainer to stabilise for as short a time as possible (just to adjust a little once my braces come off) then move onto fixed (im going to ask my ortho if i can get fixed on both top and bottom on as few teeth as possible) so i can continue mewing with retainers on. Let me know what you think

Sounds good. When my ortho treatment ended they gave me a Hawley retainer. It just kept my arch narrow. And I also had elastics but that pulled my maxilla back even further than it was AND I was already recessed due to having an underbite when I begin. 

Needless to say I regret my expensive ortho treatment but at least it gave me the confidence I needed after I got it. But I wouldn't recommend orthodontics from most doctors due to the fact most have no idea what they are doing . the fact mine put me on elastics to recess me even more (with extractions) means my problems only got worse. I suppose the only good thing was that my side profile improved but not even to an ideal, just to bbetter than before

I 100% agree and completely understand your pain, its crazy what these orthodontists are doing. Had i known about mewing and tongue rest posture i would have NEVER done orthodontics. I too have elastics which has recessed my chin, have you managed to get any forward growth and do you still use your retainer?

i guess the only good side to my story is i havent had any extractions

I don't wear my retainer at all. I had a Hawley so no reason to wear something that keeps my arch narrow and prevents my ttongue from doing its job.

I have gotten some fforward movement but most of my movement had been lateral so far. But it had given me some nice zygo effects and my lower third has also gained some height (maybe Rramus lengthening who knows). My maxilla has come forward though because when comparing a side profile shot post braces to one now, my chin has advanced forward and is not as "behind" my forehead in the Frankfort plane. My lips have become less everted also so I know my mandible has advanced to meet my maxilla. 

Despite my jaw being decently sized my gonial angle is large so my jaw sits "in" my face too far back still and my jawline isn't really defined. Gonna start adding mastic chewing to help fix this as I have always chewed soft foods as well. 

What is good is my intermolar has increased. By how much I don't know but I no longer have buccal corridors and my smile is like a 12 tooth smile. From looking at my post braces pics my canines have gone out further which is proof my arch has widened. 

My main goal now is for rotation to happen as I have too much gum exposure in the front.

I don't know that others feel the sensations I feel, but on more than one occasion I find I have to jut my mandible forward more in order for the bite to fit. So I know forward growth is happening but being that I am severely recessed I know this will take years. I not only was recessed when I got braces (class 3 underbite) but then elastics pulled me back even further. Needless to say I have all the traits of a recessed midface like undereye circles, a dorsal hump, weak eye support, a long face, a gummy smile, and my chin points down instead of forward. 

I will be getting my first Hawley retainer back from someone who found it in their house. When I get it back (I thought I lost it forever) I will know just how much my palate has changed and will report back. But needless to say I won't try to jam it in back to my mouth since I know the post braces position wasn't ideal.

By the way I too have a ccanted smile after braces. Being that braces mostly move teeth there is realistically no way they can correct a tilted maxilla. The tongue and proper posture are for that since they move the skeleton and not just teeth. I know when I look at my incisive papilla that it is pointing sideways less and less so this i take as my maxilla straightening itself out . but I mistakenly thought braces would fix this only to be rudely disappointed. Almost as if braces did next to nothing except fix some crowding. 

At least my extractions were only on the bottom. However that caused some aesthetic issues that I don't even want to talk about right now lol

@EddieMoney AMAZING, well done for working so hard to improve yourself, just keep it up it can only get better. So you have no retainer on atall? did you get any relapse from no retainer wear, and how soon post braces did you stop wearing ur retainers?

I actually bought some Mastiha gum today so cant wait to start chewing when my braces come off as i literally have NO jaw definition. From the facial points you mentioned i too have dark circles and a downward jaw, my sister has neither of this; she has a very forward maxilla (needless to say she was not a mouthbreather like me) so i know this mewing stuff is ACCURATE.

I think its best to avoid the hawley, it seems your on the right track with your tongue positioning, and as mew said there is no better retainer than your tongue.

arghh im soo angry i got braces, had i known i wouldve used the money and gone to mike mews for treatment (i actually dont live far away from mews). well the damage is done now so all i can do is self correct. your point about straightening out your maxilla gives me hope im going to keep putting more pressure on the left side that is more recessed. i really cant wait for braces to come off now, just a few more weeks!

I wish you the most success in your self treatment too, keep me updated!

Posted by: openbytes17

@EddieMoney AMAZING, well done for working so hard to improve yourself, just keep it up it can only get better. So you have no retainer on atall? did you get any relapse from no retainer wear, and how soon post braces did you stop wearing ur retainers?

I actually bought some Mastiha gum today so cant wait to start chewing when my braces come off as i literally have NO jaw definition. From the facial points you mentioned i too have dark circles and a downward jaw, my sister has neither of this; she has a very forward maxilla (needless to say she was not a mouthbreather like me) so i know this mewing stuff is ACCURATE.

I think its best to avoid the hawley, it seems your on the right track with your tongue positioning, and as mew said there is no better retainer than your tongue.

arghh im soo angry i got braces, had i known i wouldve used the money and gone to mike mews for treatment (i actually dont live far away from mews). well the damage is done now so all i can do is self correct. your point about straightening out your maxilla gives me hope im going to keep putting more pressure on the left side that is more recessed. i really cant wait for braces to come off now, just a few more weeks!

I wish you the most success in your self treatment too, keep me updated!

I wore my retainer realistically for like 4 years after my braces came off. Then I lost it (I thought) but honestly thought my bottom bonded retainer would be enough.

If anything did relapse, it was probably for the better. I say this because I have been able to widen my upper arch and I haven't had any crowding like I did before braces.

Before learning about mewing I rested my tongue on my mandible. Of course this gave me a class 3 underbite but honestly I didn't relapse to that after I lost the retainer. Maybe 4 years was enough to cement the new position. 

I did have another Hawley retainer made mistakenly because I thought I needed to maintain the new tooth posture. Well, turns out when that happened I learned the left incisors tipped in a bit. I learned that I had for whatever reason tensed the left side of my face which pushed the iincisors in. And honestly this whole tensing the left side of the face has been with me for over 30 years and I kknow this contributed to my canted smile. I am now aware of this problem and I have since stopped tensing the left side of my face. 

So any relapse I had was not big and obviously I didn't go back to a class 3 maloclussion but my teeth didn't become better either.

But knowing what causes the problems we have is necessary for progress to be made. My facial posture made me have a canted smile so now I am aware and am fixing the problems by changing the behavior 

how long did it take to straighten your maxilla? thats my major issue now my left side is canted. im seeing my ortho this week about this but i feel this is nothing he can help with and can only be straightened with my tongue

Posted by: openbytes17

how long did it take to straighten your maxilla? thats my major issue now my left side is canted. im seeing my ortho this week about this but i feel this is nothing he can help with and can only be straightened with my tongue

Since starting tongue posturing since last year my maxilla is still crooked but it had improved somewhat since my incisive papilla points less to the right now. 

Also since my asymmetry was due to my left side tensing I stopped it so that by itself lessened the asymmetry that very moment. It is so odd that I tensed my left side of my face for decades but at any rate, I stopped. 

Look in your own face and see if you tense some muscles more than others. I also have started chewing counterclockwise and clockwise with every bite. So I rotate the bolus clockwise to the right, the chew rotationally counterclockwise to the left. I got this from Brett Maverick on a video and other people have confirmed this helps with symmetry rather than trying to favor another side and potentially just reversing where the issue is. 

As muscles provide grams of force over time, my left side tensing pushed in my maxilla so it made my smile canted and my left incisors and canine tipped more inwards. As a result my smile is lower on the left side of my face and higher on my rright. It isn't an uncommon asymmetry and realistically most people have this type of facial imbalance (google celebrity faces with their face sides made equal and find just how weird they look with perfect symmetry). So while I know most people do the same thing and have canted smiles, etc I know now that I caused mine by doing certain behaviors so I will stop now and hope to correct them. 

Check yourself in the mirror and see if any side of your lip is more tensed than the other. If so, relax it and see your facial asymmetry improve in that very moment. You won't get a 100% even result but you will see a difference right away. The first step is to realize what is causing the problem and ceasing that behavior. 

Thankyou so much, im going to pay attention to tensing in my face, i dont think i do it but ill have a closer look it may be something i do unconsciously.

so do you think my canted smile (teeth literally angled, the left side appears more narrow straight on) is a result of the canted maxilla. I was planning on asking my orthodontist if hes able to expand the left hand side. 

Also what happens to the lower mandible, once you straighten the maxilla, im worried the mandible will end up a mess

Posted by: openbytes17

Thankyou so much, im going to pay attention to tensing in my face, i dont think i do it but ill have a closer look it may be something i do unconsciously.

so do you think my canted smile (teeth literally angled, the left side appears more narrow straight on) is a result of the canted maxilla. I was planning on asking my orthodontist if hes able to expand the left hand side. 

Also what happens to the lower mandible, once you straighten the maxilla, im worried the mandible will end up a mess

Why would the mandible end up a mess? The mandible is not the maxilla and will position itself forward, backward, sideways, etc just to close the bite. If your maxilla straightens the mandible will sit under it in the right way as opposed to sideways when your smile is canted.

Good luck asking your ortho about a canted smile. Most orthos I asked gave me a generic "everyone has asymmetry" garbage default answer. Although I am in America and I feel our collective IQ is a lot lower than the rest of the Western world. 

If your maxilla is titled, like I said before, the forces from your posture can realign it. It isn't a case of crooked teeth at all. A maxilla that goes to a straight position will them have a mandible underneath it that sits in the proper position.

Remember the mandible does whatever the maxilla allows it to. If the maxilla goes forward, the mandible can jut to meet it. If the maxilla is recessed the mandible sort of hides in the face to close the bite. The hinge type of joint that the mandible is allows it to really move in whatever direction you want. The thing with canted smiles is that since the maxilla tilts in one direction, your mandible also will do that to close the bite. 

God your a lifesaver, thanks so much for having more knowledge than my damn ortho!

braces will be off soon so my focus will be on correct tongue posture 100% will post updates at a later date

Final question about tongue posture, at rest should your teeth meet atall or have a gap between upper and lower palate?? Is one better for straighter teeth?

Posted by: openbytes17

Final question about tongue posture, at rest should your teeth meet atall or have a gap between upper and lower palate?? Is one better for straighter teeth?

Most recommend teeth touching to make sure the mandible puts upward pressure on the maxilla. This however doesn't mean bite down and clench. Some people clench and that isn't healthy. It will wear your teeth down and also shorten your lower third height due to teeth being worn down. Lightly touch your teeth. 

This also accomplishes the lower palate widening which makes your jaw more prominent and square shaped since the widening of the palate pushes the ramus out laterally. 

Did your teeth move at all to they’re original form after not wearing the retainer?

If you visit an orthodontist who treats your teeth and bite so why do should do smth else by yourself ? You get professional treatment. And I think it is best to follow the instructions of the doctor. And if you don't like the result, tell the orthodontist about it and he will offer you different ways to solve the problem.

I know that meowing works great. But afterremoving the braces, so it seems to me that you can spoil the whole result to which you went all these years with braces.

Wanted to post an update on this since it’s been over a year. I decided to NOT wear my retainers after my treatment. My bite was uncomfortably narrow and i was overall unhappy with the way my smile looked  (despite my openbite finally being closed)  I took a gamble and decided against using the essix retainer my orthodontist gave me and getting the fixed retainers he wanted to place behind my teeth. Initially  upon not wearing my retainers my teeth appeared to look the same. After a few months I noticed my teeth started shifting more, my openbite was slowly reopening, and  gaps on my lower teeth  that were closed using braces started to reopen. I still refused to go back to retainers and just kept mewing (bear in mind i never had crooked teeth, my issue was a bite issue) Over 1 year later now I can honestly say that was the best decision (FOR ME). My bite has not opened up at all despite me  NEVER wearing my retainers. My aim is to continue expanding my teeth outwards using my tongue only. One thing i noticed after braces was it emphasised the asymmetry i already had ( i am still trying to fix this) one side of my teeth is more gummy now after braces and these are the things i am trying to fix.  For me braces were a mistake, had i known about mewing i strongly believe i would have been able to fix my bite without braces. 

Posted by: @openbytes17

Wanted to post an update on this since it’s been over a year. I decided to NOT wear my retainers after my treatment. My bite was uncomfortably narrow and i was overall unhappy with the way my smile looked  (despite my openbite finally being closed)  I took a gamble and decided against using the essix retainer my orthodontist gave me and getting the fixed retainers he wanted to place behind my teeth. Initially  upon not wearing my retainers my teeth appeared to look the same. After a few months I noticed my teeth started shifting more, my openbite was slowly reopening, and  gaps on my lower teeth  that were closed using braces started to reopen. I still refused to go back to retainers and just kept mewing (bear in mind i never had crooked teeth, my issue was a bite issue) Over 1 year later now I can honestly say that was the best decision (FOR ME). My bite has not opened up at all despite me  NEVER wearing my retainers. My aim is to continue expanding my teeth outwards using my tongue only. One thing i noticed after braces was it emphasised the asymmetry i already had ( i am still trying to fix this) one side of my teeth is more gummy now after braces and these are the things i am trying to fix.  For me braces were a mistake, had i known about mewing i strongly believe i would have been able to fix my bite without braces. 

Thank you for coming back to share your current situation. Glad things worked out for you.