@Sceriff

It must always be taken into account that even devices must be worn for about 20 hours a day to give any effect after months

How can you expect these methods, applied a few minutes a day, to work? 

I've given up on it for a long time now, but I still appreciate you for the post you wrote. 

these methods are supposed are more about force than about time
the appliances are supposed to be comfortable so that the patient does not take them off and hence they apply less force but use more time

the methods are supposed to be done as frequently as possible and as long as u can and ofc one cant do it 24/7 and thats why u need more force using these methods

i even mentioned above that the openbite is caused by CONSTANT force of the thumbs and hence the patients do it all the time but ofc not 20 hrs a day in order to get it
but when a person grows their bones get harder and now not only a habit can fix them put an exercise that should be done as frequently(not as much but a little less) as a habit by this i mean 5 -10 mins every hr in the day but u can do less and i think it will still improve the deepbite

i have seen a person using similar methods and he also got results but he didnt have a deep bite
he used similar techniques for forward growth

and aside for the method i also have told about a posture in order to help with the deep bite which is constant and is there 24/7 similar to the devices

if the exercises or methods and the posture go hand in hand then the deep bite can be fixed

im sure that one can only use the posture and still get results but they wont be as fast as these ones and maybe if the person is older then only the fixing posture might not work

Posted by: @sane

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these methods are supposed are more about force than about time
the appliances are supposed to be comfortable so that the patient does not take them off and hence they apply less force but use more time

the methods are supposed to be done as frequently as possible and as long as u can and ofc one cant do it 24/7 and thats why u need more force using these methods

i even mentioned above that the openbite is caused by CONSTANT force of the thumbs and hence the patients do it all the time but ofc not 20 hrs a day in order to get it.
But when a person grows their bones get harder and now not only a habit can fix their deep bite also but an exercise that should be done as frequently(not as much but a little less) as a habit by this i mean 5 -10 mins every hr in the day but u can do less and i think it will still improve the deepbite

i have seen a person using similar methods and he also got results but he didnt have a deep bite
he used similar techniques for forward growth

and aside for the method i also have told about a posture in order to help with the deep bite which is constant and is there 24/7 similar to the devices

if the exercises or methods and the posture go hand in hand then the deep bite can be fixed

im sure that one can only use the posture and still get results but they wont be as fast as these ones and maybe if the person is older then only the fixing posture might not work

 

and also i am not telling someone to suck ur thumb it can cause further problems like overjet and overbite which are horizontal malocclusions

@sane I doubt that at 30 years old these methods have any validity unfortunately. 

@sceriff maybe they might not work for u if u tried other things and they didnt work aswell

btw if have u gotten any devices about ur deep bite if yes please let me know their names i would like to study them a bit aswell

@sane I didn't use any device.

@sceriff  ok nvm

@sane The only thing that could reshape the mandible is hard chewing, as evidenced by people who suffer from bruxism.

the deep bite is not a problem with the mandible its is the upper jaw or the maxilla coming downwards
changing only the mandible wont fix it completely

and also one of the methods uses something similar to hard chewing but its constant which is the incisor bite hold

in order to get an openbite people suck their thumbs and this habit is constant (by saying constant i mean the jaw does not move its only the constant pressure of the thumb) and openbite is the reverse of a deepbite which means that if a person develops this habit their deepbite may fix and slowly turn to an openbite. However it depends upon the age of the person because thumb sucking doesnt apply a lot of force and hence i used these methods to apply more force. and also thumbsucking may cause overbite or overjet which is not good
This cause of openbite is agreed upon by traditional orthodontics as well and not only by orthotropics

as for hard chewing, it causes growth (u can also search that up) in bones whereas constant pressure changes the structure of them
thats also why some people have good jaw but bad structure

btw i think that u may have not read the post fully or may have missed some points that may be causing confusions

and again deep bite isnt related to the mandible/lower jaw at all
it is a problem with the upper jaw

and also to be noted that i have gotten significant visible results in the past few months. Its not something that i came up and posted online asap but i tried it first and checked if it worked or not

i might aswell post some results later but ill do it when i think that i have reached my limits via mewing, chewing ,etc

@sane Your fast results may also be due to your ageI. In addition, I found a scientific article that states that:

Whereas lip biting of the lower lip exerts pressure on the upper incisor, causing its proclination.

Since I have the incisors tilted backwards, I could use this method to make them possible, and maybe even improve the deep bite. Does it seem plausible to you? 

@Karan I would also like to hear your opinion about the theories in this thread. 

@sceriff biting the lower lip causes proclination because it has forward force to it
when u bite the lower lip u need to bring it in between ur incisors by using some muscles and when the lip is already between your incisors the lip tends to go outwards it in normal resting postion which causes forward force. It may help with the backwards tilted incisors but it may cause some harm to your lower lip by damaging the nerves but im not sure about this

i would recommend u to find a way to get a similar effect of lip biting ie some forward force to ur incisors but its all up to what u want to do

@sane The solution would be to push the tongue against the teeth as many times as I can and hope that over time the incisors will be pushed forward.

@sceriff im not sure if pushing the tongue against the teeth would be a good idea
i've heard that it can cause an overbite. even dr. mike mew doesnt recommend that

the only place where the tongue should be in contact with is the palate as far as i know

@sane I really don't think that at 30 years old the tongue is able to cause me an overbite.

@sceriff maybe but im not sure and wouldnt do that for myself but at the end its ur choice

btw the reason i got a deep bite was due to experimenting without proper research tbh no research at all and i was also quite new to this stuff and got it around 13 yrs old
by saying this i mean that u should ask @Karan or some other professional before pushing your tongue against your teeth but if u have done your proper research and are sure it will work then its your choice

@sane I'm not sure about anything actually.

@sceriff then i would recommend not doing it because when i made these methods i was sure they were going to work and they did after which i posted them here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVIKi0O1Wbw&ab_channel=AvAOrthodontics%26Invisalign

this appliance uses the force of the lower jaw to push the anterior upwards
and in this post i am talking about the same thing

and this appliance is also fast and is supposed to do its work in 6 months if u can get it then do it because there wont be any harmful effects if not worn for a long time so that after the deep bit an open bite is made and i would actually recommend this appliance more than my methods tbh

as i am researching more and more i am finding more evidence that these methods work

also if u are able to apply upwards pressure to ur anterior the deep bite will fix and that could be any method but these were the methods that i was able to come up with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdrU5_IJjxU&ab_channel=%E3%80%90ChrisChangOrtho%E3%80%91

a video documenting the change in teeth and the face

his lower jaw got longer aswell which fixed the problems most people with deep bites have aka a short face or short face syndrome

@sane This is very interesting. Thank you.

Anterior bite plate is a good way. The same idea can possibly be applied with jaw muscles with positioning of the lower jaw. Karan said that the lower jaw is easier to remodel than the maxilla on a call.

I would be very careful with incisor chewing. The problem with incisor chewing and biting. The symphosis of the mandible is thicker than the rest of it. Chewing with the incisors could very easily bend the mandible and make the gonial angle higher

@forwardgrowth yes it makes sense
actually i didnt think of it
let me edit the post and thx for ur advice

This is what could happen if incisor chewing is done consistently.

@forwardgrowth So you recommend chewing with all your teeth? 

Posted by: @sane

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Correct posture:

the optimal posture to correct this is to keep the jaw closed whilst mewing

ik that doing this will give u a short face look and in order to avoid the short face look in public if ur insecure about it, i will say to cheat a bit by keeping the jaw open but making sure that the tongue psuhes the anterior upwards and avoiding pressure on the posterior palate

but if ur alone or in private just keep ur jaw closed

 

 

Keep incisors resting on cingulum while mewing.

@sceriff most people with deep bites open their jaws at rest hence its also called a posterior bite
u have to close ur jaw at rest so that the tongue makes maximum contact with the anterior
and keeping the jaw closed is also correct posture whether u have a deep bite or not and keeping the jaw open is a cause of the deep bite and not fixing the resting posture of the jaw may further cause problems in the deep bite

@Sceriff and yes u should be using all teeth to chew and not focus on only one as using all teeth will train the entire lower jaw

@sane By closed jaw do you mean also keeping the molars in contact? 

You know perfectly well that, for those who have deep bites, it is impossible to keep molars and incisors in contact at the same time. 

@sceriff  yes keeping the molars in contact and not the incisors

the img below should not be ur resting jaw posture

(wrong posture)

whereas the img under should be:

(correct posture)

@sane In this way I would always be in deep bite.

I am not honest at all, and I don't see any valid reason to do so. 

does this answer ur confusions ?

and feel free to ask more if u have any questions id like to help

@sane I don't see how keeping the molars in contact can solve my deep bite honestly.

@sceriff if u saw the dr mike mew's video then i think u should know that the wrong posture in which the molars are not in contact causes the deep bite in the first place
it is due to the fact that this posture pushes the posterior upwards

in order to correct this the jaw must be closed to make the molars contact. This helps in correction of the deep bite because it rotates the lower jaw upwards closing it and hence the tip of the tongue makes maximum contact with the anterior pushing the anterior upwards

u can experiment and see that if u keep ur jaw open (no contact between the molars) the tongue will not maximally raise upwards to the anterior and hence little to no force will be applied to the anterior which will not affect the deep bite in anyway

and also i will say this again that keeping no contact between the molars is the natural cause of the deep bite if u saw mike mew's video because it applies an upwards force to the posterior leaving the anterior where it is and raises the molars and premolars. Whereas when the jaw is closed the tongue naturally makes contact with the anterior and hence an upwards force is applied to the anterior raising the incisors and hence correcting the deep bite

and yes u will always be in a deep bite and make ur jaw look short 24/7 but it will raise the anterior overtime

but if u are in public u can cheat a bit by only applying force to the anterior and trying to stay away from the posterior but closing the jaw (keeping the molars and premolar in contact) will always be the best option.

Posted by: @sane

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and yes u will always be in a deep bite and make ur jaw look short 24/7 but it will raise the anterior overtime

 

But where is the evidence of what you say? I believe this applies to those of your age, certainly not to a 30-year-old man. 

Please stop passing off your theories as evidence. 

@sceriff i meant when u close ur jaw the length of it will obv decrease and not the actual jaw size
just try looking in the mirror with both postures and u will see that the correct one will have the lower jaw looking short than the other one hence the short face syndrome which is only apparent when making contact between the molars and pre molars.

and btw this posture is not my theory it is what dr mike mew said in his lectures on the orthotropics channel
the incisor biting and the thumb pushing were my methods of maximizing force on the anterior on order to bring the incisor up and to fix the deep bite and the posture came from dr mike mew

and also age doesnt change the structure of bones what does change is the malleability which means what works for me should work for u aswell
it may just take more time and not work at all if ur bones are not malleable which seems to be ur case

also for mewing to work correctly for anyone has 3 principles:

1) lips together aka lip seal

2) teeth together (which i am talking about rn)

3) tongue to the roof of the mouth

dr mike mew has said this many times in many of his videos

if u have any sort of evidence against my claims then please inform me
i will change the post so that it wont have a chance of further giving problems to anyone

@sane I would move the lower jaw to create a posterior open bite. It replicates the function of an anterior bite plate. Anterior bite plates work because they have lack of posterior contact.

The logic behind teeth eruption due to lack of contact involves biological and mechanical processes. When posterior teeth lack occlusal contact, the periodontal ligament and surrounding alveolar bone undergo adaptive changes. This can lead to vertical movement of the teeth, known as eruption, as the body seeks to restore functional occlusion.

Scientific studies have explored various factors influencing tooth eruption, including alveolar bone remodeling, periodontal ligament tension, and hormonal regulation. For example, research highlights the role of growth factors and cellular activity in the periodontal ligament and alveolar bone in driving tooth eruption. Additionally, the absence of occlusal forces can reduce inhibitory signals, allowing teeth to erupt further.
http://researchnovelty.com/management_research/article_pdf/1669114395Original%20PDF_COSD-RA310722.pdf

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/9/6/771

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/11/6/748

@forwardgrowth So what position should I hold my lower jaw in?

@sane Here is a real non-surgical correction of a deep bite in a 29-year-old young adult:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21392696

@forwardgrowth i have found that closing the jaw will make the tongue have maximum contact with the anterior but for people with deep bites their anteriors are lowered aswell and the tongue still wont make contact with the posterior because it is already higher than it should be

@Sceriff https://youtu.be/jaZhJiSJMok?si=FF4JkmHA0HdCeVfK (a small lecture of dr mike mew) in this video he explains the causes of it in clear terms and says that the tongue is between the molars which means that deep bite is caused due to keeping the jaw open and in the summary he also says that they have a bilateral posterior open bite as normal posture which means the molars are not in contact in their postures and that is the thing they are doing wrong

https://youtu.be/x_SmNlsU_wI?t=346 also where he says that the tongue applies more force on the posterior

hence when people with this open jaw posture start mewing they develop a deep bite because when u mew in this posture especially hard mewing the posterior is pushed upwards and it is the mistake that caused the deep bite for me in the first place.

Posted by: @sane

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@forwardgrowth i have found that closing the jaw will make the tongue have maximum contact with the anterior but for people with deep bites their anteriors are lowered aswell and the tongue still wont make contact with the posterior because it is already higher than it should be

@Sceriff https://youtu.be/jaZhJiSJMok?si=FF4JkmHA0HdCeVfK (a small lecture of dr mike mew) in this video he explains the causes of it in clear terms and says that the tongue is between the molars which means that deep bite is caused due to keeping the jaw open and in the summary he also says that they have a bilateral posterior open bite as normal posture which means the molars are not in contact in their postures and that is the thing they are doing wrong

https://youtu.be/x_SmNlsU_wI?t=346 also where he says that the tongue applies more force on the posterior

hence when people with this open jaw posture start mewing they develop a deep bite because when u mew in this posture especially hard mewing the posterior is pushed upwards and it is the mistake that caused the deep bite for me in the first place.

Your theory, at least in my case, is disproved by the fact that during adolescence I never had my tongue on the roof of my mouth, but I still developed deep bite, perhaps because as a child I used to suck my thumb. 

@sceriff did u mouth breath or nose breath and also when u thumb sucked did ur thumb touch the posterior because it will apply similar forces as in the resting posture described by mike mew and thumb sucking can also cause a deep bite if it touches the posterior whereas when the thumb remains on the anterior they develop open bites similar to how to anterior bite plates work

your thumb sucking habit and the posture of people with deep bites have the same effect which is applying more than usual force on the posterior.

for my case everything that he said in the video held its validity.

@forwardgrowth also the deep bite is caused due to the maxilla coming downwards from what i have learnt from the orthotropics channel

when the deep bite is seen from the side

and also anterior bite plates fix the problem by lowering the lower incisors hence increasing the gonial angle as u described in one of the posts above
so the solution proposed by orthtropics is to push the maxilla upwards and forwards as well as the lower jaw forwards and that will be by the tongue

@sane Honestly, I don't see the point of this discussion. Mike Mew himself said that the deep bite is very complicated to correct, even with appliances, and certainly contact with molars in adults will not be enough to solve it.

The only useful thing I could do, besides improving posture, is hard chewing and hope that at least my lower jaw becomes a little more angular. 

@sceriff ok

@sceriff  I found a case from russia of a deep bite corrected in a 44 year old. Eventually he actually ended up with a mild anterior open bite. This was from molar extrusion. Deep bites can be from downswung maxillas, but a lot of the time we lack posterior dental height. I would recommend holding the lower jaw forward in a class 1, and let the molars not come in contact.

Posted by: @forwardgrowth

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@sceriff  I found a case from russia of a deep bite corrected in a 44 year old. Eventually he actually ended up with a mild anterior open bite. This was from molar extrusion. Deep bites can be from downswung maxillas, but a lot of the time we lack posterior dental height. I would recommend holding the lower jaw forward in a class 1, and let the molars not come in contact.

A guy in another forum proposed the same solution: 

"Incisor contact, allowing the molars to erupt

For as much as possible, try to make the natural posture of your teeth , be incisors touching; your molars and other teeth should have absolutely no contact

This will seem very uncomfortable, but it is actually beneficial for allowing the molars to erupt gradually". 

@sane 

@sceriff when i close my bite its mainly the pre molars that come in contact and i dont feel any contact between my molars its because i push my lower jaw a little forward and also i feel a forward force on my incisors

where there some results by keeping the incisors in contact in the post?
and can u give me the link of the post.