From research I did the DNA appliance seemed to be a basic expander with the unique option to adjust each teeth individually in a limited way. This options helps make the arch more uniform or the teeth look more straight as they say.

But looking at your smile you have well lined up teeth and your inter molar width seems greater than 31-32mm.

Thus, I am not sure you will benefit from this device. I mean without the need for individual teeth adjustment it's just a basic expander. What you are paying for is mainly the doctor visitations and with any treatment that is the biggest cost.

I like the idea of Alf, but before you decide I suggest emailing your doctor asking for an explanation why she suggested one treatment over the other or before the other.

Hi @kaseyhinkle -- your situation sounds a little similar to mine. I can't speak too much about appliances, others will have more insight, but I can respond from my own experience that might help your situation.

Before anything, have you begun proper oral and body posture? Is your entire tongue plastered to the roof of your mouth? You say that you have slight reverse neck curve. How's the rest of your spine and posture?

Tongue tie is considered a big road block to successful oral function. You might need to get a frenectomy. But that releases the range of motion with your tongue, so you should be able to mew better as well as strengthen your tongue properly -- which in turn will increase your chances and level of improvement. Many people experience no gains because of the limitation their tongue-tie creates.

If you go by way of an appliance, a frenectomy as well as trained proper oral posture will help, as many people experience relapse because they weren't able to maintain proper oral posture after the appliance regimen completed.

If you do get dental insurance, make sure that the place you go to get your appliance will accept it, and that the appliance will be covered under it. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with insurance beyond that, given that my dental really only gives me a discount on annual cleanings. But I'd imagine if the insurance covers the appliance, you'd want it before treatment.

As to whether you should go the route of NCR or an appliance: that's up to you, and how severe or mild your case is. If it were me, I'd get my tongue-tie sorted out first, practice correct oral posture as soon as I could and maintain it always, fix my neck, do the NCR, and work as much as I could to get a strong platform in oral and body posture while I save up money to look into the appliance a little later down the road--if it turned out I still needed it--as I would now have a better chance of maintaining those gains, maybe even getting farther than I would have before.

My own personal experience with body and oral posture correction - no appliances:

I never thought I was a mouth breather either, but that's up for debate. It wasn't anything I thought about or noticed. Given my narrow palate, there's no denying that whether or not my lips were closed, my tongue was not on the roof of my mouth. A lot of people have issues breathing when they try to maintain proper mewing posture, which I never had. So it's possible that if I did keep my mouth closed, that it saved me some grief. So, that's something to think about!

I have a 31 mm intermolar width, an asymmetrical face, with scoliosis and forward head posture. Using just my tongue, I have had no expansion in a year. But with endonasal release, working with a chiropractor, and practicing tongue strengthening exercises as well as working on proper oral posture -- I haven't had a headache in over a month when before they were frequent, my TMJD has improved, and I can't remember the last time I had a stuffy nose, or when the last time was that I clenched my teeth at night. Pretty soon after mewing, I stopped waking up with my mouth open. My scoliosis and forward head posture are much much improved.

I still have asymmetry in my face. Neck tension is still an issue, which I'm working on with my chiropractor, using realignment and Gua Sha, though my range in movement in my neck has significantly improved. I also look better, and seem to have reverse-aged a bit.

I'm sure I'll continue to improve, but it's going to take time without an appliance. A LOT of time.

You already know that non-orthodontic methods can be pretty expensive -- and my experience is no exception. I went into this, knowing I might have to spend a lot of money, maybe more than I expected. But I wanted to start out as naturally as possible, so I made a choice to give it a year doing the more holistic methods, and then see where I am. I'm now at a crossroads where I can keep going holistically, or pursue an appliance, and I'm still mulling that over, as I'm just not sure.

But as I wait, I'm mewing.

Did you have orthodontia? What is the endonasal release you had done and how much was it, how many series? I was actually worried NCR could possibly make something worse- my head seemed to feel different after and the 2 bad stories I read online worried me.  Something about toxins causing the meninges to tighten but I doubt that could happen.

I know you should have whole tongue on roof of mouth which I try, but I know before I found out about all this my tongue was not on the roof. I also seem to always have jaw tension and overall, so it seems hard to keep it up there.

I wondered if a tongue tie removal and myofunctional could expand itself, even without an appliance. Maybe it’d just take longer?

I heard about ALF unwinding cranial distortions but i know cranial work is often done with it. I wonder if it is even needed if you do alternative ways.

I just do not feel well, I know I have other health stuff I need to work on diet wise, gut wise, I just feel overwhelmed. There are so many possible root causes/ways to go about things. I read so much... structural issues, cranial, jaw, acidic clogged lymph, inflammation, food sensitivities, etc

I read tongue tie can cause issues so I figured I’d do that first since it is best to have it released. But what I don’t understand- do you NEED to see a myofunctional therapist weeks before it? 

Is your tongue tied at all? Mine doesnt look severe but the dentist I saw still said I had it. I am seeing an upper cervical chiro right now, I assume regular chiro would give more relief but it seems they claim upper cervical lasts longer adjustment wise but I was recommended upper cervical from someone...a medical intuitive recommended it vs regular chiro so  iwent with that for now.. she also allows small payments/box on the wall.

Have you done NCR? So many different therapies, I am just annoyed. Like ABC, too but a few I talked to said NCR has best results. With NCR it seems big results come with multiple series and it costs a lot and does not expand the palate and seems to take awhile to cause any maxilla forward. I still see asymmetry in my face too. Every therapy out there will say their way is best. NCR most likely not reimbursed with insurance. So then I wonder if I should just do the appliance since it changes your face and expands and also works on cranial distortion (with osteopathy)

 I was also told I should not facepull myself. ? Talk about confused!! Wouldnt bringing the maxilla forward help balance the jaws itself? I know there’s many factors. The tongue does what the ALF does so I honestly wonder if the ALF really does unravel cranial distortions and balances bite better than the tongue.

I remember hearing it is HARD to get progress if you are below 35? intermolar. Or maybe it was 38. Is this true? Would the tongue even out the palate or any maxilla cant on its own?

Posted by: kaseyhinkle

I remember hearing it is HARD to get progress if you are below 35? intermolar. Or maybe it was 38. Is this true? Would the tongue even out the palate or any maxilla cant on its own?

Yes, it's hard from 35-38mm but possible. I can confirm from personal experience that it's very hard.

Just saw this now lol. I am just sooo confused and irritated, I just want one doctor to guide me on what to do and what’s needed.

I read about Dr Gerald Smith and how he talks about cranial distortions and a maxilla cant.

I always felt my teeth were straight, but seem to go up more on one side and never really liked my smile much midline wise. I noticed my palate seems to be wider on one side than the other, so looks a bit uneven and seems to close more on one side. I’ll try to attach a better pic of the roof.

Don’t the DNA and ALF do the same thing mostly? One dentist actually recommended against the dna. Does facepulling by yourself even work? Can proper oral posture itself even out the jaws and bite?

Yes there is asymmetry in your arches, but it's small. I had to look at the pictures over several times to confirm this. I am not sure how to describe it, as it seems it exists on opposite sides of your upper and lower arches.

It might have something to do with the alignment of your jaws. In the picture where you are smiling the lower jaw seems to be shifted to the left side a little. That can be an effect of lighting or just the way you were posing at that time.

The thing that caught my attention the most is the angulation of your lower teeth, they are flaring inward, which means you probably can benefit from an expansion. 

The DNA and ALF seek to achieve the same outcome, namely straighten and broaden the arch, but in different approaches. The Alf is more gentle and requires an effort in posturing your tongue, etc. Therefore, I say it's the better path.

I don't think face pulling works and I have never seen any evidence to support it.

Proper oral posture and function can theoretically even out the jaws and bite, but I have not seen any documented cases where this has happened.

By the way I just want to add and emphasis, that's it completely normal to feel confused. The subject is very diverse and rich and there aren't many conclusive facts you can relay on. Take your time in researching everything.

I'll answer as much as I can here!

Did you have orthodontia? What is the endonasal release you had done and how much was it, how many series? I was actually worried NCR could possibly make something worse- my head seemed to feel different after and the 2 bad stories I read online worried me.  Something about toxins causing the meninges to tighten but I doubt that could happen.

I know you should have whole tongue on roof of mouth which I try, but I know before I found out about all this my tongue was not on the roof. I also seem to always have jaw tension and overall, so it seems hard to keep it up there.

Jaw tension and difficulty maintaining oral posture is normal in the beginning. Just keep being mindful of it all, and make sure not to clench your teeth. Very lightly touching. Your tongue will strengthen, your neck muscles will strengthen, and it should get easier over time.

I wondered if a tongue tie removal and myofunctional could expand itself, even without an appliance. Maybe it’d just take longer?

"Natural" expansion by way of not using any appliances will definitely take longer if it does at all. It all depends on your starting intermolar width, which @abdulrahman addressed. Tongue tie removal helps many people to improve their oral posture. But again! Even without expansion, I've seen a lot of improvement.

I just do not feel well, I know I have other health stuff I need to work on diet wise, gut wise, I just feel overwhelmed. There are so many possible root causes/ways to go about things. I read so much... structural issues, cranial, jaw, acidic clogged lymph, inflammation, food sensitivities, etc

I understand this, very much! It's hard not to get overwhelmed, especially when it feels like there's so much to fix. Take a breath, and just take tiny steps. Eventually, it'll become routine, and won't feel like so much. Try working on one thing at a time, and then introduce new things once you have the previous ones under your belt. I've been trying to cut sugar and dairy out of my diet, minimize yeast, fix my posture, fix my oral posture, clear my skin -- it's a lot, but with adding one new step after a while, I realize I've been able to balance things pretty well. And a lot of things overlap. Fixing nutrition helps my skin as well as gives me energy to heal. Improving my skull function has greatly improved my immune system and overall health.

I read tongue tie can cause issues so I figured I’d do that first since it is best to have it released. But what I don’t understand- do you NEED to see a myofunctional therapist weeks before it? 

Is your tongue tied at all? Mine doesnt look severe but the dentist I saw still said I had it. I am seeing an upper cervical chiro right now, I assume regular chiro would give more relief but it seems they claim upper cervical lasts longer adjustment wise but I was recommended upper cervical from someone...a medical intuitive recommended it vs regular chiro so  iwent with that for now.. she also allows small payments/box on the wall.

It may depend on the person who does your frenectomy. You don't need to do anything you don't want to do. But if you begin training your tongue, and have tools at your disposal to begin strengthening your tongue, you may find you're running out the gate. The sooner you start mewing, the better. It can take a while to find the proper posture. I didn't start to understand until I start with my myofunctional therapist about 8 months into learning about mewing. I wish I had started earlier, as a lot of those 8 months were trial and error.

Have you done NCR? So many different therapies, I am just annoyed. Like ABC, too but a few I talked to said NCR has best results. With NCR it seems big results come with multiple series and it costs a lot and does not expand the palate and seems to take awhile to cause any maxilla forward. I still see asymmetry in my face too. Every therapy out there will say their way is best. NCR most likely not reimbursed with insurance. So then I wonder if I should just do the appliance since it changes your face and expands and also works on cranial distortion (with osteopathy)

Unfortunately, there is no one in my area who performs NCR or ABC, otherwise I would. I have, however, done endonasal release, and my nose has straightened significantly. As for other asymmetry, there's still a lot to work on, but I absolutely have seen benefits, especially since every session feels easier than the one before it. 

I think that a lot of methods are taking different paths to reach the same goal. It all depends on what is right for the individual -- their level of dysfunction, the funds they have, the dedication they have, etc.

I was also told I should not facepull myself. ? Talk about confused!! Wouldnt bringing the maxilla forward help balance the jaws itself? I know there’s many factors. The tongue does what the ALF does so I honestly wonder if the ALF really does unravel cranial distortions and balances bite better than the tongue. 

Have you done NCR or any appliances? I thought proper oral posture could correct the jaws/palate over time. Well, I read tmd issues are actually caused from the lower jaw being too far back, related to the recessed maxilla, oral posture, etc.

is it a good idea to at least get a tongue tie removed? Also on some websites before and afters of people doing myofunctional therapy look much different but not sure if they also did orthodontia of some sort.

it seems my palate is wider or goes out more on the left side but maybe many people have palates like that. No idea lol. And yes chin seems to deviate a bit. But when I look it people many aren’t perfectly symmetric

Lol, sorry for all the long replies. I guess I just want to fix my symptoms mostly (headache issue since I was young). Looking back at the Break the Matrix forum, many people had huge change from mewing or pushing their tongue. I wonder what their palate was? So does this mean the ALF is not needed. I know cranial mobilization would also help.

like this: how did he do that? I wonder what his palate size was

^ Jamo never really revealed much about his routine, other than that he pushed hard and obsessed over the process. As far as I know, he acheived the changes mostly by mewing.

Do you think your bite is off at all or have any upper/lower jaw “distortions”? 

Hi Sclera. Did you have a rapid palate expander when you had ortho, retainers? Do you feel your bite may be off in any way or with cranial distortions? I don’t get notified when I get a reply on here trying to figure that out. I am thinking I will definitely work with an OMT and do the tie release with whatever recommended bodywork.. If the ALF was in total 6k, I could go for it but I feel like that in combo with cranial and myo stuff, and adjustments adds up to a lot. Plus there’s also tmj orthotics/bite build ups.. Was your endonasal a few days in a row and what type of chiropractic?

Hi there, @kaseyhinkle! A lot of things happening in the real world, so I'll respond as best I can!

I did not have any kind of palate expansion, but I did have a retainer, which I stopped using out of laziness when I was 19. My palate may have narrowed, but remarkably, my teeth are pretty well spaced, despite the occlusional cant.

I do have cranial distortions, a lot of recession and twisting which I believe is due to a combination of bad oral and body posture. A lot of my struggles with scoliosis and forward head posture are clearly marked on my face.

Endonasal was very sporatic! Four sessions over two months. But I went to the chiropractor twice a week for three months and saw and felt great benefits even without endonasal. I need to start that back up again as soon as I can.

It does add up quite quickly, but you can always take your time and do one step at a time.

Hi :) How do i make it so i get notified when i get a reply? I clicked subscribe but don’t get notified. Honestly I have read a lot and I feel like I need to take a break for awhile. It’s a lot to take in and a bit confusing too. Anything could be causing any symptom :/ and there’s so many dif ways to address.

Is there a type of chiro you’d recommend? I saw an upper cervical but I’d need to stick to the care plan. Not sure who i should go to, maybe a cranial osteopath or something. It would be nice to get my cervical curve back but it may not be that simple. What do you think about agga and alf? Or other tmj orthotics? I feel like I had orthodontia for such a long time.. years. It sounds like we had similiar except you didnt have an expander, and had your jaw pulled back while I had reverse headgear and retainers 🙁

also are you tongue tied?? If you had an underbite it sounds possible you are! It even looked like my friends sort of were. It seems like everyone is lol..

Not sure what's going on with notifications, but I tend to get an email when someone puts in the @username

I don't have tongue tie, but I have an overbite now, when as a child I had an underbite.

I'd suggest sticking with your upper cervical chiropractor to correct your most urgent issues. I chose my chiropractor because he is very familiar with TMJD.

I don't comment on specific appliances, as I have no experience in them!

Why would you think DNA wouldn’t benefit? I thought expansion always helped the tmj’s, expanding maxilla and then also affecting neck and rest of body. It def is expensive though! Wonder how DNA differs from agga.

It def doesnt look like i have a severe tongue tie but it seems many actually have it in some way! Maybe a dentist could tell you if you do or tongue tie support group on fb :) i didnt think i did either! Lol I can move my tongue around and all unlike some who have it bad.

i was considering a cranial osteopath but not sure. There are many chiros closer to me so I am unsure I should find someone closer vs 50 mins away. I know the skull and jaw also affect the neck :/ Have you done more endonasal?

I was going to find an OMT to work with and then do the release since it can cause many symptoms. I contacted Sarah Hornsby but she didn’t get back to me! 

It feels tough to keep the tongue up there 24/7 at all times. When I take a side pic, I notice a difference how I look tongue up teeth touching vs lower. My chin seems weaker. Wondering if I should get a myomunchee to help strengthen the muscles. Not sure if I would REALLY need an appliance for my jaw/tmj or if I can do it without.