I've seen a post on here where MAD appliances can pull condyles from sockets.  I would assume that the pressure was too high and condyles not monitored properly.  I want to reiterate the statement for this site that "This is a public discussion forum.... Do not begin, delay or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licensed medical supervision." Many a rat had unintended consequences to various treatments.  Even followers of Dr. Mew have experienced unintended consequences.  I developed a TMJ issue on left side from clenching... just a couple of times!  It is extremely dangerous to clench.  It can be damaging to overchew.  For the mainstream solution for many with class 2 who missed the boat, Jaw surgery is the current fix.  

Why would chewing advance the mandible? I have an overjet Im trying to close in, and from my understanding if the maxilla moves forward the mandible moves with it thus reducing the overjet. 

Posted by: Pame

Why would chewing advance the mandible? I have an overjet Im trying to close in, and from my understanding if the maxilla moves forward the mandible moves with it thus reducing the overjet. 

What are you thinking overjet is?  I am thinking it's the distance between central incisors top and bottom.  Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.

From my own experience, the posterior third of the tongue, and raising it to the soft palate naturally moves the mandible forward. If only my maxilla was upswung, I believe I could move the mandible even more forward, but at this point my bite won't allow it comfortably, and I'd be jutting if I tried any further. But the posterior third and tongue strengthening is the reason for my overbite improving.

@darkindigo We are thinking the same thing.

@sclera Others on the forum have said that the mandible cannot move forward on its own when the face has stopped growing. 

@Pame - You can choose to not believe me. I don't speak for other people, only myself. My overbite has significantly improved due to the change in my tongue posture. My lower incisors now press against my upper incisors, when before my lower incisors were around 1-2 mm behind. My improved bite is now set in a way so that more of my lower incisors show when I bare my teeth than before. And simply relaxing the posture doesn't revert. This is my new bite.

The tongue is connected to the mandible, so when engaging the muscles it affects the placement of the lower jaw.

This unfortunately is limited to my recessed maxilla, but if it were to upswing then my mandible would move forward still.

Posted by: Sclera

@Pame - You can choose to not believe me. I don't speak for other people, only myself. My overbite has significantly improved due to the change in my tongue posture. My lower incisors now press against my upper incisors, when before my lower incisors were around 1-2 mm behind. My improved bite is now set in a way so that more of my lower incisors show when I bare my teeth than before. And simply relaxing the posture doesn't revert. This is my new bite.

The tongue is connected to the mandible, so when engaging the muscles it affects the placement of the lower jaw.

This unfortunately is limited to my recessed maxilla, but if it were to upswing then my mandible would move forward still.

How long have you been mewing? Any devices?

@sclera Whats your age and how long have you been mewing? 

I've heard of a guy who needed bimax surgery because his lower jaw aggressively moved forward (against his will) in his twenties which gave him a bad underbite. So it really shouldn't be impossible to move the lower jaw alone with mewing.

@eddiemoney and @pame - I'm 33, and I've been mewing without devices since August 2017, but it was not a gradual or consistent progression. I feel like I wasted a lot of months on incorrect posture, or not combining techniques that ended up giving me a boost in progress. But in that time I had major scoliosis work with a chiropractor who also specialized in TMJD, endonasal release, myofunctional therapy, and practicing posture correction and random techniques at home.

There were aha moments in that time, the major one being around May 2018 when I finally understood where and how my posterior third should be, which is what triggered the improved bite. So sometimes I consider my real oral posture start then.

@sclera Any tips you can share on how you managed to achieve proper tongue posture?

Myofunctional therapy and real-time help with a professional was instrumental in my understanding. If you can, I would really recommend getting a myofunctional therapist to properly learn the exercises and receive instruction/adjustments.

Strengthening my tongue was very important in understanding and reaching a new level of oral posture, and these are three exercises that made a huge difference for me:

1) Skinny tongue — this video shows “fat tongue” too, but I only do Skinny Tongue. It took me two weeks of daily practice to get my muscles to work. The key is to be able to puff up the middle of the tongue. You don’t want it to roll. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d71MqwPkPvk

1b) Skinny tongue 2nd phase -- Once you've got the hang of puffing the tongue, if this isn't happening already, in Skinny Tongue, focusing on the posterior third, try to get the tip of the tongue to retract into the tongue...if that makes ANY sense. So instead of the tip extending out, try to WHILE the midline of the tongue is puffed up, make the tip disappear into the tongue. The posterior third is seriously engaged this way.

2) Glide your tongue clockwise around your mouth between your teeth and your closed lips (I do 25 times), making circular motions like a windmill. Then repeat but counterclockwise.

3) In the mirror, with mouth wide open, try to fit your entire tongue up to the roof of your mouth. Stuff it, suction, work it in there, do what you need to do so that when you look in the mirror, the tongue is entirely between your teeth and plastered to the roof of the mouth as evenly as possible. (When I first did this, I could really feel my neck muscles engage, and it felt like my tongue flattened and arched. My tongue was so weak, though, that it constantly fell and felt like it was rolling/twisting to one side). Then looking in the mirror, “click” your tongue down, thinking about your posterior third.

And finally, I cannot stress the importance of body posture enough, and fixing forward head posture. I saw much improvement when I made sure I was in the best posture I could be while doing these.

Actually... so even Dr. Mew himself explains the constituent part of Mewing... inner and outer U.  The mandible is pretty much a one-way lever... it goes forward.. not back.  You can push this lever different ways... but to just push this lever.. that's what I'm talking about here.

I may very well be wrong... but unless someone can show to me that a maxilla moved forward by Mewing... there really isn't a point to the inner U.  See more on inner and outer U here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijFkcLMmSJI   It's driven by the tongue, he says.  If it really worked in adults... do you think that the founder of orthotropics, Dr. John Mew would have the face he does?  Just a simple question.  Do not watch this without seeing what he says about NOT clenching, bruxing or overchewing.  He doesn't make it clear here, but does elsewhere.  And here's what happens when you overdo things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ZRkXIBIpw   There is risk.

Dr. Derek Mahony explains about class 2 and class 3.  Class 3 is hard to fix.  Class 2 is easy [1].. In fact, our chins come forward on their own as we age [2].  THIS CAN BE HIGHLY UNATTRACTIVE!!!!!!  Please don't think a witch face is good looking.  That is why I cannot recommend chewing in an undesired position or one that will not allow attractive future growth.  See here the skeletal difference for a younger then older woman: https://www.livescience.com/35332-face-bones-aging-110104.html   So... not a great idea to move chin forward..  IT GOES ON ITS OWN!  For those who are severely recessed... the question I pose is whether this can be expedited through particular chewing if skeletal and dental class 2?  Please notice in the skeleton that the dentition is less overbite for the older woman.  This is perhaps by TOP FACE MODELS are in class 2 dentition... See my post on beauty here: /community/community/main-forum/growing-an-awesome-face/#post-13146   Surely, this makes them look younger.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1UiR7VAR-4

[2] 0:24 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XYcRq4Bq-g   There was actually a better video of him explaining this, but it was taken down.  He was working on a cute little girl and said that he was going to have maxilla more forward to chin... "noses and chins protrude as we age".  He mentioned that she'd appreciate it when she's 40.  He would know.  He's the best for the face in eduating orthodontics.

@darkindigo, Both patients in Dr. Bill Hang's clenched their teeth for a long time. Mike doesn't recommend that. Besides, in the video it states clearly "case against having teeth in contact longer than 8 hours" which doesn't contradict the orthotropic premise ("The Mew Tropic Premise states that for facial growth to be favourable and there be room for all 32 teeth, at rest the lips need to be comfortably sealed, all the teeth in light contact and the tongue fully up against the roof of the mouth for between 4 to 8 hours a day").  So Dr. Bill isn't against it as long as it is no longer than 8 hours. 

EDIT:

Well you changed your comment a little bit  (when you said before that Dr. Hang doesn't agree with teeth together). But I agree with what you wrote now in regards of him being against clenching, bruxism, etc. He never mentioned their tongue position, though.. I really doubt they had a correct and balanced tongue position with optimal strength.

@darkindigo You're editing so much of your last post that it's hard to keep up, apologies if this reply doesn't line up with it. If I understand correctly, you were originally asking how someone could correct their class 2. I was not aware you were seeking to narrow the discussion to only chewing.  Yes, the maxilla needs to upswing/move forward, which is the ultimate goal in all of this. Your discussion of chewing is interesting, and I do agree that chewing has benefits in moving the mandible forward if done correctly, and can have a lot of adverse effects if done incorrectly (example: myself for decades, until I learned the proper way to chew and swallow).

I merely presented my own case as further information and an additional way to move the mandible forward and improve the malocclusion, which is through tongue strength and proper tongue posture. Mandible position affects the bite and severity of a class ii, which I don't think should be dismissed.

I don't clench my teeth, but "feather touch" as they call it, and agree that clenching is inadvisable. And these are all specific things that were taught to me by my myofunctional therapist who has at least 10 years' experience. Since following my own oral posture journey, my TMJD has drastically improved, not worsened. Again, I can only give my own experience.

But I'm not sure where the "many of you just don't know what you're talking about" is coming from within context of this specific discussion. 

Posted by: Sclera

@darkindigo You're editing so much of your last post that it's hard to keep up, apologies if this reply doesn't line up with it. If I understand correctly, you were originally asking how someone could correct their class 2. I was not aware you were seeking to narrow the discussion to only chewing.  Yes, the maxilla needs to upswing/move forward, which is the ultimate goal in all of this. Your discussion of chewing is interesting, and I do agree that chewing has benefits in moving the mandible forward if done correctly, and can have a lot of adverse effects if done incorrectly (example: myself for decades, until I learned the proper way to chew and swallow).

I merely presented my own case as further information and an additional way to move the mandible forward and improve the malocclusion, which is through tongue strength and proper tongue posture. Mandible position affects the bite and severity of a class ii, which I don't think should be dismissed.

I don't clench my teeth, but "feather touch" as they call it, and agree that clenching is inadvisable. And these are all specific things that were taught to me by my myofunctional therapist who has at least 10 years' experience. Since following my own oral posture journey, my TMJD has drastically improved, not worsened. Again, I can only give my own experience.

But I'm not sure where the "many of you just don't know what you're talking about" is coming from within context of this specific discussion. 

Obviously you do.  I since deleted that.  It is good to have someone with success fill the rest of us in!  Myfunctional therapy is really very powerful, which is why I haven't done any besides a little I saw from Audrey Yoon online.  Not good stuff for me.  It needs to be uniquely designed for the patient, much like orthodontics!  The practitioner you went to sounds great.  Do you by chance have any photos showing before and now? 

The premise of my question was geared more toward some low hanging fruit potential situations of overbites where there is room to move up the mandible... (large overjet).  These people who have recessed chins really suffer.  I think that if the maxilla needs to come forward, too, then that's more for what you're talking about with tongue placement.  Dr. Mew broke this down into inner and outer U and this is what I wanted to make distinct. 

I do have photos, and have taken great care to replicate position and lighting. Unfortunately, I don't share them publicly and have only sent them to a trusted few. I hope you understand. I am confident in proclaiming my progress when it comes to the mandible, though there are other changes to my skull I believe have occurred, but I can't say with any assurance.

I'm not sure what you mean by "low hanging fruit situations" in regards to overjet severity. I feel like the premise of your question still falls in line with my responses. My mandible has moved forward due to my tongue placement. Chewing can reinforce that, but my own experience was that even with chewing, my mandible didn't come forward until the posterior third of my tongue came up.

I have hit a limitation, as my recessed maxilla has basically blocked my mandible from moving even more forward. I need my maxilla to upswing now. Even so, I continue to feel changes in my bite as I continue my posture.

I can't say whether or not it would be easier for someone with an overjet of 4 mm, as that isn't my own experience.

Also, regarding the "witch look".I don't know if a "witch chin" is preventable or simply genetic, but the skull photos you referenced show me two different skulls. This doesn't mean that these exact changes will happen to the younger woman's skull. I also don't see anything in the article mentioning the chin.

@sclera Did you get any help with learning to swallow properly? Maybe some exercises or something to help nail it down?

Yes, my therapist helped me with swallowing as well.

One thing you can do is:

Looking in the mirror (any of these exercises is better done in front of a mirror), holding a cheesy grin "slurp" some saliva onto your tongue, or use a spray bottle to spray water through the corner of your mouth into your mouth. Still holding the cheesy grin and teeth bared, try to swallow that saliva/water ONLY using the tongue, and making sure the posterior 3rd is doing the work, and hitting the soft palate when you swallow. Your shouldn't see any changes to your facial muscles, you should only see the neck activate from your tongue and throat.