In trying to piece together the whole subject of bone structure and development, facial features and the whole concept of "forward growth," I keep running into questions concerning deep set eyes, which I have (mine are very deep set).
On numerous occasions, I've encountered the idea that forward growth can (roughly) be indicated in a profile shot by drawing a line from the middle of the lower eyelid to the inside edge of the nose, and that forward growth has occurred to the extent that this line is sloped. An almost vertical line would indicate very poor forward growth, and it can be seen that good looking people have a somewhat sloped line in contrast.
So I get this - what confuses me is when you have very deep set eyes in the equation. By their very placement, they're going to make that cheek line a lot more sloped because they're set back in relation to the edge of the nose. But does this mean that someone with deep set eyes has better forward growth, or does it just mean that their cheek slope has been increased "unfairly" by the deep position of the eyes?
And this leads me to wonder what deep set eyes actually are and how they come about. In my mind there are two possibilities:
1) The eyes are actually further back in the head than other people's, when compared to some solid landmark (like the ear).
2) Everyone's eyes are actually set in the same position in the sagittal plane - what makes them appear "deep set" is that the bone structure grew forwards in relation to them, e.g. the forehead and brow bone grew forward and made the eyes appear more deep set and "enclosed."
If 1) is true, then having deep set eyes is no indication of forward growth, one way or the other. If 2) is true, however, then it is.
I can't make my mind up, admittedly because I'm quite ignorant of biology. Looking at a profile of myself and drawing that line from the eye to the nose, I would appear to have adequate forward growth. But is it just an illusion caused by my deep set eyes?
Very hard to find information about this kind of stuff online, not least because any search for "deep set eyes" is likely to deliver nothing more than a million YouTube tutorials on "makeup for deep set eyes." 😭
It's #2.
Deep set eyes are mainly about the facial bones protruding past (forward) the eyes, specifically the infra orbital rims.
my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/
So does this mean that faces with deep set eyes are "forward grown" then? I guess the possibility exists that you could have good forward growth of the brow, orbitals and cheekbones, whilst still having a recessed jaw?
I think of my own case. I don't think I look particularly forward grown, it's kind of an "in between" deal. I have deep set eyes which give me that cheek slope, but my mandible is clearly retruded (I know this because I cannot retrude it myself any further than it is now, I can feel the bones moving in my ears when I move the jaw up and down with my fingers in the ears, and I also get TMD clicks and pops when chewing). My mandible clearly needs to come forward a little (if I jut a few mm, the clicks and pops stop), but given that my bite is currently good, doesn't this mean that my maxilla needs to come forward as well?
Why this is confusing to me is, if having deep set eyes means that my face grew forwards, the idea that my maxilla is still not forward enough seems strange to me.
Attached is a bad photo of my profile (intentionally bad/blurred/filtered for purpose of disguise!) I see people with much shallower set eyes than this, who nonetheless have much better forward growth. To be honest it's not a good photo as I think I'm turning my head to the left slightly, nonetheless if you trace a line from where my eyelid is (believe me when I say my eye is set to the left side of that triangular shadow!) to the edge of my nose, it's quite sloped. In someone whose eyes weren't as deep set as mine, but who is considered to have "good forward growth," does that mean that their brow/orbitals/cheekbones are less forward grown, while their jaw is more forward grown?
Brow is separate from the face and maxilla, it part of the cranium.
Theoretically yes, it can be, but generally they are all recessed together. Keep in mind the upper jaw position is usually measure at the A point. That's right under the nose.
You can however have a recessed lower jaw while having forward upper jaw and eye support.
Your bite is good because perhaps your teeth were set to bite at that position. Did you have orthodontic treatment? Otherwise, yes it could be your upper jaw is retrognathic and holding your lower jaw back.
No, it just means their brow, orbitals, and cheek bones are not naturally large and protruding as other people. None of those things are the first measure of forward growth, the A point is.
my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/
Interesting questions!!! I have a philosophy that I started to share here.
My own eyes were asymmetrical. Pushing behind the last tooth of my upper maxillary arch on my squinty side every now and again has made that eye come less so. Real estate in head. Wisdom teeth removal isn't so much about the wisdom teeth themselves... but the arch perimeter being able to support them... obviously in concert with a patent airway and in keeping the maxilla from being fowardly protrusive.
Who has some of the most squinty eyes? Chinese, right? The Chinese also have the most protrusive / lip incompetent faces. Look at my article here /community/community/main-forum/growing-an-awesome-face/#post-13146 for more on squinty eyes, arch development and maxillary placement.
TMD is obviously a concern... though in looking at your profile, your maxilla doesn't particularly strike me as retruded. However, your explanation begs otherwise. Keep in mind that there is skeletal and dental classifications separately. You can learn more from Dr. Derek Mahony's lectures. I had written the article above to address the madness of going to extreme intermolar widths and why there's an aesthetic reason to have balance. There is a an interconnection between retruded mandible and TMD. So... if I had that issue, I'd get a CBCT by a good orthodontist. There are many ways to bring the maxilla up a few mm. Consulting a local orthodontist usually is free. The interesting thing is for each consult, there's a different treatment option.. That's because there are many different techniques, tools and ways to make even the most minor of adjustments. I liken it to getting a cabbie. Less to do with the vehicle and more to do with a combination of vehicle and driver. For example... someone may give a helicoptor ride to get around... there are plusses/minuses of that.. There may be someone who drives an old Toyota with broken AC, but they know the back-roads. I just think that sometimes we try and match the tool and the doc together. This can be useful, I think... So,... for instance... if I determine that a good tool for the job is Damon braces... then I'd go to someone who does those. If I like Crozat-style/alf-style wireframe DNA (Okay, I really love this for kids... possibly adults if the bottom teeth are in sync.)... see here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-wireframe-Daytime-Nighttime-Appliance-DNA-appliance-that-was-used-for-each-subject_fig1_297007626 but it totally depends on what's needed, the arch, the person. I like someone who suits the tools with the individual. They actually all do that. I think if you were to talk about your concerns with an orthodontist, you would find some really great options.
The article on growing an awesome face /community/community/main-forum/growing-an-awesome-face/#post-13146 is really long and QUITE GOOD! I'll summarize a key element of your own concern for those who may not want to learn that much. Basically... scroll down to the end of the article above and scroll to "My Results" section of... http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ Pulling like a boat the maxilla forward... and these people have squinty eyes. Clearly the guy pushing this stuff... doesn't really know what he's doing. Even one eye is uneven.
Brow is separate from the face and maxilla, it part of the cranium.
Theoretically yes, it can be, but generally they are all recessed together. Keep in mind the upper jaw position is usually measure at the A point. That's right under the nose.
You can however have a recessed lower jaw while having forward upper jaw and eye support.
Your bite is good because perhaps your teeth were set to bite at that position. Did you have orthodontic treatment? Otherwise, yes it could be your upper jaw is retrognathic and holding your lower jaw back.
No, it just means their brow, orbitals, and cheek bones are not naturally large and protruding as other people. None of those things are the first measure of forward growth, the A point is.
I've never had any orthodontic treatment. No extractions as a kid, no braces, and all 4 of my wisdom teeth came through. Despite having a reasonably narrow palate, I got away with no crowding on the top arch and just a little crowding on the bottom arch. My bite was always OK, I think. Top teeth overlap the bottom and come to rest about halfway down, so I'm not sure if that's classed as an overbite but I don't think so. I had veneers done on 8 or 10 of the top front teeth some years ago and the dentist said my spacing was good. Obviously they made those veneers to make my bite as good as possible in that position, but I think it was always good.
Interesting questions!!! I have a philosophy that I started to share here.
My own eyes were asymmetrical. Pushing behind the last tooth of my upper maxillary arch on my squinty side every now and again has made that eye come less so. Real estate in head. Wisdom teeth removal isn't so much about the wisdom teeth themselves... but the arch perimeter being able to support them... obviously in concert with a patent airway and in keeping the maxilla from being fowardly protrusive.
Who has some of the most squinty eyes? Chinese, right? The Chinese also have the most protrusive / lip incompetent faces. Look at my article here /community/community/main-forum/growing-an-awesome-face/#post-13146 for more on squinty eyes, arch development and maxillary placement.
TMD is obviously a concern... though in looking at your profile, your maxilla doesn't particularly strike me as retruded. However, your explanation begs otherwise. Keep in mind that there is skeletal and dental classifications separately. You can learn more from Dr. Derek Mahony's lectures. I had written the article above to address the madness of going to extreme intermolar widths and why there's an aesthetic reason to have balance. There is a an interconnection between retruded mandible and TMD. So... if I had that issue, I'd get a CBCT by a good orthodontist. There are many ways to bring the maxilla up a few mm. Consulting a local orthodontist usually is free. The interesting thing is for each consult, there's a different treatment option.. That's because there are many different techniques, tools and ways to make even the most minor of adjustments. I liken it to getting a cabbie. Less to do with the vehicle and more to do with a combination of vehicle and driver. For example... someone may give a helicoptor ride to get around... there are plusses/minuses of that.. There may be someone who drives an old Toyota with broken AC, but they know the back-roads. I just think that sometimes we try and match the tool and the doc together. This can be useful, I think... So,... for instance... if I determine that a good tool for the job is Damon braces... then I'd go to someone who does those. If I like Crozat-style/alf-style wireframe DNA (Okay, I really love this for kids... possibly adults if the bottom teeth are in sync.)... see here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-wireframe-Daytime-Nighttime-Appliance-DNA-appliance-that-was-used-for-each-subject_fig1_297007626 but it totally depends on what's needed, the arch, the person. I like someone who suits the tools with the individual. They actually all do that. I think if you were to talk about your concerns with an orthodontist, you would find some really great options.
To be fair, I think the only reason East Asian people have "squinty" eyes is because of the prevalence of epicanthic folds, which are nothing more than a physiological trait which happens to be most common in Asia. I don't think it has anything to do with bone structure. My dad has epicanthic folds and he has similar bone structure to me (deep set eyes, thick heavy brow bone). He looks almost Mongolian! Interestingly enough, he has AB blood type, which I think originated in that part of the world. I may get folds as I get older, I don't know.
I think you're right though, I need to speak to a good orthodontist. The trouble is finding one in NYC who is familiar with the full range of treatments discussed on forums like this. I've tried.
The article on growing an awesome face /community/community/main-forum/growing-an-awesome-face/#post-13146 is really long and QUITE GOOD! I'll summarize a key element of your own concern for those who may not want to learn that much. Basically... scroll down to the end of the article above and scroll to "My Results" section of... http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ Pulling like a boat the maxilla forward... and these people have squinty eyes. Clearly the guy pushing this stuff... doesn't really know what he's doing. Even one eye is uneven.
Yeah well when he starts going on about the psychic abilities of kids, I kind of lost interest. There's a lot of nonsense on that page.
The article on growing an awesome face /community/community/main-forum/growing-an-awesome-face/#post-13146 is really long and QUITE GOOD! I'll summarize a key element of your own concern for those who may not want to learn that much. Basically... scroll down to the end of the article above and scroll to "My Results" section of... http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ Pulling like a boat the maxilla forward... and these people have squinty eyes. Clearly the guy pushing this stuff... doesn't really know what he's doing. Even one eye is uneven.
Yeah well when he starts going on about the psychic abilities of kids, I kind of lost interest. There's a lot of nonsense on that page.
I'm not agreeing with him. In fact, I disagree.. Scroll down to the photos under "Results". They're telling.
Who are you assassinating @alphaminus
He's talking about this: http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ Apparently, he's reading it instead of just scrolling to the photos under results. They speak for themselves.
Who are you assassinating @alphaminus
He's talking about this: http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ Apparently, he's reading it instead of just scrolling to the photos under results. They speak for themselves.
It's the picture he showed us in the third post. He just looks menacing to me(halo effect).
Who are you assassinating @alphaminus
He's talking about this: http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/ Apparently, he's reading it instead of just scrolling to the photos under results. They speak for themselves.
It's the picture he showed us in the third post. He just looks menacing to me(halo effect).
LOL - yeah.
It's the last dozen that freak me out with the eyes.
Skull and Jaw Correction
Join hundreds who are Tensegrity Mewing, enhancing the good results of mewing and reversing damage. Free Newsletter and Classes
Your email is safe with us, we don’t spam