Mew push-swallow every 10 seconds or nah? 

But also, Tongue chewing your foods against your roof is something I'd heard mike speak about, but not so often. Even his tongue chewing video  ink discusses it as a gum chewing concept. Good. You do say you've not done much gum chewing  

good work. Impressive/motivating. You help cement which theories/practices are important through relaying your experience like this. Ex) Hanging from a bar hasn't been spoken of too often yet it' quite beneficial.  I wasn't thinking of it too often until this post. 

Amazing results. So now we know what is possible even without appliances if a person is dedicated to making changes. And all with the tongue too, no gum chewing. I've noticed that it seems like people who are exercising and eating well (lots of carbs, fats, and calories) seem to get changes more quickly.

I have some questions:

Do you eat or avoid dairy? I'd like to see if dairy is essential to remodeling bone or not just for my own curiosity.

Since you aren't chewing gum, did you only get palate width increases, or did you notice other changes too that people talk about like better cheekbones, hollow cheeks, better eye support, better breathing, etc?

Finally which hard foods are you chewing on and what position do you sleep in?

Keep it up.

When I mean no gum chewing I mean no mastic or falim. 

Posted by: Allixa

Amazing results. So now we know what is possible even without appliances if a person is dedicated to making changes. And all with the tongue too, no gum chewing. I've noticed that it seems like people who are exercising and eating well (lots of carbs, fats, and calories) seem to get changes more quickly.

I have some questions:

Do you eat or avoid dairy? I'd like to see if dairy is essential to remodeling bone or not just for my own curiosity.

Since you aren't chewing gum, did you only get palate width increases, or did you notice other changes too that people talk about like better cheekbones, hollow cheeks, better eye support, better breathing, etc?

Finally which hard foods are you chewing on and what position do you sleep in?

Keep it up.

I don't avoid dairy. Especially since I used to limit it when young and I grew up short and frail. I know too many well built tall people who consume lots of dairy so I definitely do not limit it. Is it essential? I don't know. What I will say is that while I do not avoid it i also don't go out of my way to get it. I maybe get it once or twice a day in kefir and yogurt. I eat cheese but only with meat since I can't stand it by itself.

Without chewing I still have gotten results in my face. Wider more flanged cheeks, stronger masseter, a wider mandible (because it has only followed my maxilla), and even my eyes are set deeper in my skull which gives them better support. And as an asthmatic breathing has improved greatly as I no longer mouth breathe and I take less breaths when I perform physical activity. My facial width to height ratio has greatly benefited from this. No more horseface. By that I mean my face is not long and downward grown along with a narrow palate (like a horse). And my ramus seems longer plus my chin definitely has gained prominence. 

Finally I eat beef jerky every day and nuts. Also eat protein bars and those are both chewy and hard. Whenever I eat something soft I still take time to grind it down. My masseter muscles have developed from this too. I also sleep on my back and sometimes sides. But I find I am spending more and more time on my back with time. 

If one were to go purely off of Mew's videos and information, and If this site didn't exist (nor any other site) then Mew's words would be all we go off of. 

You attest to "proper" tongue posture and swallow. 

Accordig to Mew - the proper swallow technique is the mew push swallow both with and without foods. The duke of Norfolk himself has said swallowing every 10 seconds to build in a habit is proper. 

Then you swallow every 10 seconds, as per the proper technique: 

Yes?

No?

Posted by: Gregory

If one were to go purely off of Mew's videos and information, and If this site didn't exist (nor any other site) then Mew's words would be all we go off of. 

You attest to "proper" tongue posture and swallow. 

Accordig to Mew - the proper swallow technique is the mew push swallow both with and without foods. The duke of Norfolk himself has said swallowing every 10 seconds to build in a habit is proper. 

Then you swallow every 10 seconds, as per the proper technique: 

Yes?

No?

I don't count the seconds but I push swallow every few seconds so maybe it averages out to 10 seconds. I definitely produce less saliva though since adopting this and wonder if anyone else had this experience. 

Posted by: EddieMoney

I don't avoid dairy. Especially since I used to limit it when young and I grew up short and frail. I know too many well built tall people who consume lots of dairy so I definitely do not limit it. Is it essential? I don't know. What I will say is that while I do not avoid it i also don't go out of my way to get it. I maybe get it once or twice a day in kefir and yogurt. I eat cheese but only with meat since I can't stand it by itself.

Without chewing I still have gotten results in my face. Wider more flanged cheeks, stronger masseter, a wider mandible (because it has only followed my maxilla), and even my eyes are set deeper in my skull which gives them better support. And as an asthmatic breathing has improved greatly as I no longer mouth breathe and I take less breaths when I perform physical activity. My facial width to height ratio has greatly benefited from this. No more horseface. By that I mean my face is not long and downward grown along with a narrow palate (like a horse). And my ramus seems longer plus my chin definitely has gained prominence. 

Finally I eat beef jerky every day and nuts. Also eat protein bars and those are both chewy and hard. Whenever I eat something soft I still take time to grind it down. My masseter muscles have developed from this too. I also sleep on my back and sometimes sides. But I find I am spending more and more time on my back with time. 

Thanks for the info, it sounds like you are getting some great changes.

I'm a big fan of dairy. I can't prove that it is essential but I think that it might be or at least is very helpful.

Posted by: Allixa

Posted by: EddieMoney

I don't avoid dairy. Especially since I used to limit it when young and I grew up short and frail. I know too many well built tall people who consume lots of dairy so I definitely do not limit it. Is it essential? I don't know. What I will say is that while I do not avoid it i also don't go out of my way to get it. I maybe get it once or twice a day in kefir and yogurt. I eat cheese but only with meat since I can't stand it by itself.

Without chewing I still have gotten results in my face. Wider more flanged cheeks, stronger masseter, a wider mandible (because it has only followed my maxilla), and even my eyes are set deeper in my skull which gives them better support. And as an asthmatic breathing has improved greatly as I no longer mouth breathe and I take less breaths when I perform physical activity. My facial width to height ratio has greatly benefited from this. No more horseface. By that I mean my face is not long and downward grown along with a narrow palate (like a horse). And my ramus seems longer plus my chin definitely has gained prominence. 

Finally I eat beef jerky every day and nuts. Also eat protein bars and those are both chewy and hard. Whenever I eat something soft I still take time to grind it down. My masseter muscles have developed from this too. I also sleep on my back and sometimes sides. But I find I am spending more and more time on my back with time. 

Thanks for the info, it sounds like you are getting some great changes.

I'm a big fan of dairy. I can't prove that it is essential but I think that it might be or at least is very helpful.

Yeah most tall people I know consume a lot of it. I know me adding things to my diet in my 20s gave my height increases and also broadened my shoulders. The whole "life ends at 18" is ridiculous .You can absolutely bring developmental changes past adolescence especially if you were deficient in nutrients when younger. For example in my early years before I was a teen my mom put me on a limited meat diet thinking it was healthier but I think I missed out on a lot of nutrients this way . I also personally limited my own dairy intake by personal preference. So I was always smaller than every other guy most of the time. I went into high school at 5'2. Left it at 5'7. I am now 5'10 and those 3 extra inches all happened after high school with a combo of eating more and doing pulling exercises.

After high school I also started adding more carbs to my diet slowly and nowadays my diet has a majority of calories from them. This has helped make me more robust in terms of facial and body development since I was on a keto diet for so long and I personally felt it just kept me skinny and with weak muscle tone despite a high protein intake. In terms of body robustness I truly feel my potential to be near 6 feet tall can be met because my legs are very long. I used to sit next to shorter people and still was shorter but ever since changing how I stand I have gotten so many benefits in torso lengthening. And the thing is I doubt the spine itself had gotten longer but it is just in its ideal position. What I do know is I have the leg length of all of my tall friends (over 6 foot) and shoe size is the same but my torso is lacking. So I theorize positioning has definitely affected me because most of my life i have had forward head posture and slouching. I wasn't aware of this practically until this year. Used to also suffer low back pain a ton but that has been all but completely eradicated. 

This isn't just face stuff we are fixing. It is our lifestyle.  In terms of face though I would love to see more changes as even though I have lost my horsey aspect of my face I still have downward rotation of the maxilla. However this is changing too as I see less and less gum exposure with time. I guess one advantage I had was that braces didn't narrow my arch to insane levels like they do other people and I think not having extractions on the upper jaw saved me in that I wasn't given some crazy narrow palate in the low 30s. But it was narrow enough that I couldn't originally position my tongue to the spot for a while 

Posted by: EddieMoney

Yeah most tall people I know consume a lot of it. I know me adding things to my diet in my 20s gave my height increases and also broadened my shoulders. The whole "life ends at 18" is ridiculous .You can absolutely bring developmental changes past adolescence especially if you were deficient in nutrients when younger. For example in my early years before I was a teen my mom put me on a limited meat diet thinking it was healthier but I think I missed out on a lot of nutrients this way . I also personally limited my own dairy intake by personal preference. So I was always smaller than every other guy most of the time. I went into high school at 5'2. Left it at 5'7. I am now 5'10 and those 3 extra inches all happened after high school with a combo of eating more and doing pulling exercises.

After high school I also started adding more carbs to my diet slowly and nowadays my diet has a majority of calories from them. This has helped make me more robust in terms of facial and body development since I was on a keto diet for so long and I personally felt it just kept me skinny and with weak muscle tone despite a high protein intake. In terms of body robustness I truly feel my potential to be near 6 feet tall can be met because my legs are very long. I used to sit next to shorter people and still was shorter but ever since changing how I stand I have gotten so many benefits in torso lengthening. And the thing is I doubt the spine itself had gotten longer but it is just in its ideal position. What I do know is I have the leg length of all of my tall friends (over 6 foot) and shoe size is the same but my torso is lacking. So I theorize positioning has definitely affected me because most of my life i have had forward head posture and slouching. I wasn't aware of this practically until this year. Used to also suffer low back pain a ton but that has been all but completely eradicated. 

This isn't just face stuff we are fixing. It is our lifestyle.  In terms of face though I would love to see more changes as even though I have lost my horsey aspect of my face I still have downward rotation of the maxilla. However this is changing too as I see less and less gum exposure with time. I guess one advantage I had was that braces didn't narrow my arch to insane levels like they do other people and I think not having extractions on the upper jaw saved me in that I wasn't given some crazy narrow palate in the low 30s. But it was narrow enough that I couldn't originally position my tongue to the spot for a while 

I've always believed that the body is perfectly able to make changes at any age, especially if someone is willing to make real changes to diet and lifestyle like you did. Your results seem to be good proof of that. It probably just gets harder to do with age.

I experimented with keto too and didn't like it. What's your main source of carbs now? Wheat?

And yeah it's not just the face, it's the whole body which the face is a reflection of. Mew even hinted at that.

You will probably see good changes to your maxilla with time. I have been mewing for over 2 years now and I am still seeing changes especially as I learn new techniques like open mouth chewing etc.

My main source of carbs come from grains yes. I eat pasta and bread. Fruits also are in there like apples and bananas. Berries I know are supposed to be nutrient rich but honestly I don't find them palatable (except grapes and blueberries) so I just don't eat them. I will eat warm climate fruits like watermelon, mangoes , and pineapples however. That's carbs. Protein sources are meat, dairy, and protein supplements (bars). Fat sources are protein sources but nuts and olive oil as well as I eat a lot of Italian food as it is .

So anyway is your goal with OMC to shorten your philtrum?

I never really had a goal for OMC. It was just something I read about on the forum and decided to try and and see what would happen. I noticed that it felt good so I kept doing it every time I was chewing gum and sometimes with food. Over time it led to my face looking better. My cheeks became more hollow, my jaw became stronger, my masseters stopped looking puffy, etc.

I'm not sure if it's useful just for gum chewing or for real food chewing as well, but I keep doing it because it feels good and because I can see the benefits from it when I look in the mirror.

By the way I have been experimenting with the tongue posture that you recommended and I can see why you like it now. I think it is very good for creating expansion because it allows the tongue to slowly snake its way forward while pushing the teeth outwards. The thing is it doesn't work for me because my palate is too narrow still, but I might give it a try in the future when I get some more expansion.

Related to that, I was thinking more about the posture that I recommended and I realized that it is a very good posture for pushing the maxilla outwards, but not for expansion. You should give it a shot if nothing else works, like one or two years from now if your maxilla still isn't where you want it to be and you are willing to try anything, just give it a shot because it worked for me. When I use that posture I can feel a good pressure along my entire midface and especially behind my nose. Now my maxilla is far enough forward though that I can get the same feeling just from having the tongue pushing forward on the spot.

Also about food, yeah berries get hyped up by paleo groups who are scared of sugar and carbs, but they aren't that appealing. I eat the same types of fruit as you but also lots of oranges and OJ (but only the fresh squeezed kind). Also I eat dried fruit like dates, prunes, raisins as well. Grains are fine too, a lot of people hate on them these days but I experimented without them and its just not sustainable.

What I find funny about paleo groups preferring berries and continental climate fruits vs tropical climate fruits is that they both are paleo. People from the tropics would have only had high sugar fruits available to them. It's not like everyone lived along the 45th parallel (latitude wise) so I just ignore their quacky and unfounded gimmicks.

Now while palate widening has helped my mandible come forward what I really want is rotation counterclockwise of my maxilla. My palate could realistically stay this wide and I wouldn't mind. But since my maxilla is downward grown it bothers me since I know it prevents my jaw from projecting properly.

That one dude Jamo from break the matrix and lookism seems to have the most impressive rotation of his maxilla that I have seen so far. And from what I read he had the tongue on the incisive papilla so that is what I am going for. I don't really care so much about how "forward" the maxilla is but more about it rotating to its proper placement. 

But then again moving it forward and closer to the nose would theoretically allow the mandible to come forward too. I don't know 

Yeah Jamo did get some great results. Maybe all you need in order to get the rotation you are looking for is the ability to push forward on the spot with the tip of your tongue. How far are you from being able to get into that posture? Thinking about it now maybe my idea would actually be bad for you, because it would push the incisive papilla even further away from the tip of your tongue.

What's keeping you from putting your tongue onto the spot right now?

Posted by: Allixa

Yeah Jamo did get some great results. Maybe all you need in order to get the rotation you are looking for is the ability to push forward on the spot with the tip of your tongue. How far are you from being able to get into that posture? Thinking about it now maybe my idea would actually be bad for you, because it would push the incisive papilla even further away from the tip of your tongue.

What's keeping you from putting your tongue onto the spot right now?

About a few millimeters is all that is keeping me from it. My tongue sits on the last rugae before the incisive papilla at the moment so I am getting closer and closer. 

That sounds good then. Hopefully you can reach it soon. I have a feeling once you do and you unlock the forward push against the spot posture, that you will begin to feel and see good things happening especially with regards to maxilla rotation.

Are you absolutely sure the measurements are accurate? Did you manage only width lateral expansion or movement of maxilla forward as well?

I think the only things that could really helped you gain that kind of growth is extreme mewing and chewing of hard foods + keeping mouth closed at all times with proper tongue position.

I have another question - how did you perform the measurements? Did you do them yourself or had a dental specialist do them?

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Are you absolutely sure the measurements are accurate? Did you manage only width lateral expansion or movement of maxilla forward as well?

I think the only things that could really helped you gain that kind of growth is extreme mewing and chewing of hard foods + keeping mouth closed at all times with proper tongue position.

Lateral as I don't really know how to measure forward movement. If anything has moved forward it is my mandible due to palate width allowing the mandible to jut to close the bite. 

I hear people measure from tooth to nose tip but that honestly seems like it wouldn't tell the whole story since if teeth tip forward it would seem the maxilla grew forward when it is just an illusion caused by teeth tipping . I hear an ideal distance from incisor to nose tip is like 37mm or 42mm for an adult male when all nose shapes are take into account but I have no citation for that so to me those numbers mean nothing so I can't really know how to measure that. Also I understand maxilla rotation causes the upper jaw to eventually go IN the face as well so I don't know if this would affect the distance to nose tip either.

And to your other question, I measured two different impressions .I will get an album for you guys with these impressions and measurements. 

I understand why you are skeptical but keep in mind I started with a decent palate width of 38 mm to begin with AND that was after it had been already narrowed by the ortho. Genetically I and the men (and some women like me mother) in my family have robust jaws, I just am the only one with it pushed back by orthodontics. I know of people on this forum who have had difficulty expanding but they started at palate widths that I have never been narrowed to myself. Even after ortho dental experts had always commented on the size of my jaw, teeth, and palate width. These things themselves do have a genetic component to them. And this is coming from someone with horrible posture his whole life. It was only after braces that my gonial angle reeeeeeeally increased (and it was already high because of my underbite) and I got a horse face which is NOT genetic as nobody in my family has it either. My jaw was still large just tucked into my face severely.   

But yes I have been maintaining oral posture properly at all times . I have decent muscle control compared to most people so that again will give me an advantage.

So to recap I already started at a relatively decent place to begin expansion. And yes there is a genetic component to palate width because I have had bad posture for 3 decades plus ortho and my palate still was 38mm. I never got any expansion done professionally either. Also, I honestly don't understand the whole concept of "forward " growth anyway as I believe based on everything I have read that the maxilla doesn't really ever move forward at all but just to its proper place. For me, rotation matters way more than forward movement anyway as I honestly don't feel like my maxilla is too far behind, just downward grown .   

where are pictures?

You cite a lot of lifestyle/diet/habit factors in your OP - I'd love to separate the wheat from the chaff and find out which of those actually contributed to the expansion (I can't imagine it's even half of them TBH)  

Also, thought I might throw this out there on the subject of chewing - if you're a vegetarian and tough meat is out, try munching on some dried apricots every day. They're tough and chewy, almost meaty in texture. Chew em up until they're nothing. I buy the organic ones that don't have sulfur dioxide (they're dark brown, not orange). 

And finally, a little light relief. Whenever the subject of chewing comes up I'm always reminded of this scene from Nuts in May by the comic genius Mike Leigh - I love subtle humor like this!

https://youtu.be/tn4AbSicZ7U

Posted by: EddieMoney

My main source of carbs come from grains yes. I eat pasta and bread. Fruits also are in there like apples and bananas. Berries I know are supposed to be nutrient rich but honestly I don't find them palatable (except grapes and blueberries) so I just don't eat them. 

Careful with all those grains and fruits. Your dental health may take a hit. 🧐 

Posted by: Allixa

Thanks for the info, it sounds like you are getting some great changes.

I'm a big fan of dairy. I can't prove that it is essential but I think that it might be or at least is very helpful.

My input on dairy is: I had a normal diet during my first two pregnancies, and had babies who were born on time at 8.4 and 8.5 pounds. During my 3rd pregnancy I had unlimited access to raw milk, cream and butter, and has a baby born on time at 11 pounds 7 ounces. Then the raw dairy went away, and my 4th baby was born on time at 8.14 pounds. So, dairy, bone growth. Yes. But raw dairy.

For me avoiding dairy is essential if i want to mew, I get alot of slime in my throat and blocked nose if i eat dairy. If you have asthma I suggest at least trying a month or two without dairy. 

Posted by: EddieMoney

My main source of carbs come from grains yes. I eat pasta and bread. Fruits also are in there like apples and bananas. Berries I know are supposed to be nutrient rich but honestly I don't find them palatable (except grapes and blueberries) so I just don't eat them. I will eat warm climate fruits like watermelon, mangoes , and pineapples however. That's carbs. Protein sources are meat, dairy, and protein supplements (bars). Fat sources are protein sources but nuts and olive oil as well as I eat a lot of Italian food as it is .

If you're going with a carb-heavy diet, my advice is to add in sweet potatoes, and legumes (if you can digest them well) and eat pasta and bread not every so often, something like twice a week would be enough.

I tried Keto too, but I don't like being low on glycogen. As a slim-build guy (with not quite broad torso / shoulders), I've put on some muscle. But if I do low-carb and lose a significant of glycogen in the muscles, I don't look as full / 'swole'.

Anyway, thanks for writing this report. You give hope to us in our late 20's. 

Been at it for a few months, so far not seeing much palate expansion (taking periodic measures), past the initial phase 😔 . I need to step up my game, though, cause I've honestly been messing around mostly.