I remember that my CP was around 10 seconds a few years ago before I began mewing. After performing multiple tests in the past few days it seems that I still can't get it much further. It's intriguing that a CP of 10 seconds is, according to Buteyko, within the zone of severe disease. In spite of this, my breathing is shallow and only 10 cycles a minute, with the average of a healthy individual residing at 8-12. 

@progress

The number of breathes per minute in itself doesn't mean anything and is not a good indicator of health. There are people with 5-10 CPs who take around 5 breaths a minute. What matters is the minute ventillation in liters. You might feel like your breathing is shallow, but if you have a CP of 10, then it's not.

@ChrYes 

Buteyko breathing definitely helped me a lot with tongue posture. For example I used to breathe through my mouth during sleep no matter how much I mewed during the day (my CP used to be below 10) but now that I am nearly at 30 MCP I nearly always wake up with my tongue on my mouth. Also I have a lots of energy, so I can easily hardmew during the day (I used to get tired after a few minutes)

My CP is also higher with correct tongue posture, but not that much. Are you sure that you are measuring it correctly? You have to wait a few minutes between tests and you have to stop the timer after the first signs of air hunger. 

Btw I recommend doing the reduced breathing exercise every day. While nosebreathing will help a bit, it won't increase your CP magically. And join the discord if you haven't already you'll find a lots of uselful stuff there!

Edit: If you do two sessions of reduced breathing per day you can easily go from 10CP to 30CP in one or two months. You definitely don't need a year, idk who said that

Posted by: @uwu

You might feel like your breathing is shallow, but if you have a CP of 10, then it's not.

In the end CP is a one-dimensional way of measuring the effectiveness of a multi-dimensional process. Just like a BPM alone is not a strong indicator of anything, neither can be CP. Though breath-control has beneficial applications (Buteyko method appears to be closely related to pranayama, which is millenia old yogic technique of breathing cessation that is said to bring many benefits), one is compelled to wonder if Buteyko did put the cart before the horse by asserting that it is hyperventilation that causes disease, rather than disease that causes hyperventilation. It seems that when any underlying metabolic conditions are addressed, CO2 production is increased, and hyperventilation in turn ceased. On the other hand, trying to max out CP while suffering from such conditions can potentially create new issues (or expose old ones) down the line.

What kind of changes have you noted from tripling your CP?

@progress

Well, that's not what Buteyko teaches and I have no reason not to believe him. He teaches that the control pause is an accurate measure of body oxygenation and therefore an accurate indicator of health. He also teaches that not enough oxygen is the cause of (almost?) every disease, and that with increasing the oxygen levels by decreasing the breathing, you can get rid of the majority of them.

I'm not too good at explaining things, but if you're interested I can link you Artour Rakhimov's book and Buteyko's lecture at Moscow University in pdf. Trust me it's worth looking into.

My results so far:

- I used to sleep 8-9 hours a day, now I am rested after 6.5 hours or sometimes with 6 or even less

- My pulse while resting used to be ~90+ now it's around 68-72, but after long and successful sessions it can go lower.

- I used to be anxious during the day for no reason, now I'm a lot calmer even at stressful situations. 

- I crave unhealthy foods less often and healthy foods more often. My digestion is better.

- And I have a lot more energy. Like at least ten times as much as I used to. 

Btw those are basically textbook results that almost anyone can achieve. More experienced members have achieved a lot more (e.g. sleeping 4h/day, 40 bpm while at rest)

Sadly I have to stop increasing my CP until I have dealt with my focal infections, but when I'm done with that I hope that I can progress even further.

Posted by: @uwu

@progress

Well, that's not what Buteyko teaches and I have no reason not to believe him. He teaches that the control pause is an accurate measure of body oxygenation and therefore an accurate indicator of health. He also teaches that not enough oxygen is the cause of (almost?) every disease, and that with increasing the oxygen levels by decreasing the breathing, you can get rid of the majority of them.

The problem is that many actions that are not necessarily health-promoting can increase CP. Someone following Buteyko's and Rakhimov's premise of CP as the omniscient measure of health will end up doing everything they can to reduce breathing, sometimes to the demise of their own overall health. For example, cold exposure and ketogenic diets both improve CP by decreasing CO2 production, which in turn inhibits metabolic rate and can thus lead to a host of other problems of varying degree. It appears that  careful attention has to be paid to the method with which hyperventilation is fought, which probably is why there is no official self-treatment protocol for Buteyko method.

My results so far:

- I used to sleep 8-9 hours a day, now I am rested after 6.5 hours or sometimes with 6 or even less

- My pulse while resting used to be ~90+ now it's around 68-72, but after long and successful sessions it can go lower.

- I used to be anxious during the day for no reason, now I'm a lot calmer even at stressful situations. 

- I crave unhealthy foods less often and healthy foods more often. My digestion is better.

- And I have a lot more energy. Like at least ten times as much as I used to. 

Btw those are basically textbook results that almost anyone can achieve. More experienced members have achieved a lot more (e.g. sleeping 4h/day, 40 bpm while at rest)

Sadly I have to stop increasing my CP until I have dealt with my focal infections, but when I'm done with that I hope that I can progress even further.

Sounds like a major improvement, especially with your resting pulse having been so high.

@uwu @chryes do you have a Buteyko teacher or are you self-taught? Supposedly it is difficult to learn without personal guidance. What exercises have you used to increase your CP? I experimented with a Frolov device for a short time, but had to suspend the practice when my schedule got too busy to make time for it.

@apollo

Yep I am self-taught. I've read Artour Rakhimov's books and website and I think those are enough to learn the basics. It's not difficult without guidance at all if you aren't a special case. So no need to spend money

To increase my CP I was mostly doing the reduced breathing twice a day (slight air hunger and relaxed body, on empty stomach and cool temperature) but I also made a lot of lifestyle changes (such as no overeating, healthier diet, no oversleeping, sleeping on left side, taping mouth at night, no overheating, daily excercise etc) Those have become a lot more effortless by now, but at the first I really struggled with them.

@progress

Interesting I didn't know that. But I knew that cold exposure (like the so-called wim hoff method) is not advised, because it kills nerves and promotes hyperventilation. I've also seen something about keto, but I didn't read it since I'm not interested in cutting carbs out.

Since most of the changes required to increase CP are good for health (healthy diet, healthy sleep, excercise, no oversleeping etc) I think that it's illogical that they can cause harm. Lifestyle changes are just as important as breathing exercises, especially later on. Actually when someone reaches ~50CP breathing exercises become secondary.

So if by dangerous actions you mean high air hunger exercises, they are safe if you know how to do them. If you mean those weird diets, they are not promoted nor necessary. And even those are probably still less dangerous than some of the ideas seen on this forum, like facepulling or "deathmewing".

Also there are people who shouldn't go further than 40CP because it can be harmful to them, but I think that anyone should be able to reach ~25MCP at least

@uwu Reducing hyperventilation is definitely useful as CO2 in itself has a tremendously important role for living organisms. I don't disagree that increasing CP through breath control would be a beneficial thing to do, I'm only questioning whether low CP is inherently a categorical sign of poor health. I think I'll experiment with increasing my CP to 20-30s to see if there is anything to gain from it. A while ago I realized that opening of the nasal passages, which I thought was mainly caused by correct positioning of the tongue, is really the result of creating a sufficient state of hypercapnia by reducing breathing rate.

https://medium.com/forbidden-realms/is-holding-your-breath-good-for-you-392795759b7c

This is the way I chin tuck, while mewing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uDWmShn3SY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br9_E48LA5g

I highly suggest you guys try it.

Peace out.

Posted by: @uwu

To increase my CP I was mostly doing the reduced breathing twice a day (slight air hunger and relaxed body, on empty stomach and cool temperature) 

I've skimmed through Rakhimov's website and watched some of his videos. I thought he was the one who said Buteyko exercises usually required personal guidance to master, but recommended the Frolov device to increase the CP independently. Maybe I read that somewhere else. You don't do any special exercises like "steps" or walking with breath holds? You just focus on breathing slower at rest to the point of slight air hunger? For how many minutes twice a day? Thanks!

@progress

Oh well, I found it weird that according to buteyko's health tables everyone below ~60CP is diseased and everyone below ~20CP is chronically diseased. I never had any serious health issues, despite being around 7-10CP for probably like a decade. But I had other problems such as stress or fatigue that are gone now. 

@apollo

I try to do at least 2x20 mins of rb every day, but more when I can. I know that it sounds like a lot of time, but it's worth it.

I tried some of the other excercises too, but I didn't really stick to them. Frolov or the diy frolov is also good, if you know how to use them correctly.

First try of the 'steps' exercise today: walked around local park in high intensity tongue posture mode for 30-40 mins: made 5 attempts at steps exercise managing consequent; 30, 40, 50, 50, 50 steps: was rather surprised, disappointed by initial 30 steps, as I pride myself on being reasonably fit and healthy: although, final 3 tests are fair and reasonable assessment, in accordance with what I have heard/read since discovering potential general health benefits of Buteynko breathing method: initially expected steps tally of 60 for first attempt, oh well, plenty of room for improvement: am now expecting/hoping to reach 100 steps within 1 year: not sure if this is realistically attainable: although certainly a nice high benchmark to aim for.

am very much enjoying the connective relationship between tongue posture an Buteynko: really is providing all aspects of discipline and commitment that i enjoy in a practice.

have a very comfortable CP of 30: not sure how much to stress the 'want to breath' reflex action of CP: expect I could achieve 40-50 if stressing the breath hold....?

Posted by: @progress

 

[O]ne is compelled to wonder if Buteyko did put the cart before the horse by asserting that it is hyperventilation that causes disease, rather than disease that causes hyperventilation. It seems that when any underlying metabolic conditions are addressed, CO2 production is increased, and hyperventilation in turn ceased.

Just read all about Buteyko just now, after seeing this post, and though it's fascinating and undoubtedly a critical measure of general health, I think Progress might be right. Has anyone ever proved that the causality is the in direction they claim it is? Do these breathing exercises do that much in and of themselves? If you look at the /r/Buteyko subbredit and the links they suggest, it's almost always suggested that there may be certain health problems you need to tackle first, before starting the breathing program, like mercury poisoning. Yeah! No doubt! Something like mercury amalgams will tank your health and removing those and chelating would probably make your CP increase dramatically with no other interventions.

Personally, I have too much going on to try and start another health thing, but I certainly will be measuring my CP as I progress in other areas (including mewing). I have a hunch that the OP is onto something. The insane health benefits of mewing probably increase CP without doing anything else.

@aeonaton

That's great! 30 CP is relatively healthy and definitely feels great. I am at ~30MCP too : D

You should stop counting the seconds at the first sign of air hunger (usually the diaphragm moving) 

@silver

The only people who shouldn't do the simple rb excercise are those with migraines, panick attacks or heart disease. They can make progress too, just with other excercises (in the beginning)

Yes, there are certain health problems that need to be addressed  sooner or later if you want to keep making progress. But, for example cavities or mercury fillings only become a problem around 25MCP. Until this they don't really matter. (Also I remember reading that buteyko's patients were able to progress up to 40 or more with amalgam fillings or cavities as long as they had good oral hygiene)

At really low CPs (~10-15) breathing exercises are the most important change you can do, and yes they are basically life changing. Or at least they were for me and a lots of others. Later as you make progress, breathing exercisers should become less and less important. And if you can get to ~60CP, then breathing exercises are not necessary anymore, just physical exercise.

I really recommend reading Buteyko's lecture or one of Arthur's books, they sould answer most, if not all of your questions.

@silver

Btw there are a shit ton of studies: https://www.reddit.com/r/buteyko/comments/czgw0p/scientific_research_collection_on_buteyko_breath/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

A lot of them are in russian though

Posted by: @uwu

@aeonaton

That's great! 30 CP is relatively healthy and definitely feels great. I am at ~30MCP too : D

You should stop counting the seconds at the first sign of air hunger (usually the diaphragm moving) 

@silver

The only people who shouldn't do the simple rb excercise are those with migraines, panick attacks or heart disease. They can make progress too, just with other excercises (in the beginning)

Yes, there are certain health problems that need to be addressed  sooner or later if you want to keep making progress. But, for example cavities or mercury fillings only become a problem around 25MCP. Until this they don't really matter. (Also I remember reading that buteyko's patients were able to progress up to 40 or more with amalgam fillings or cavities as long as they had good oral hygiene)

At really low CPs (~10-15) breathing exercises are the most important change you can do, and yes they are basically life changing. Or at least they were for me and a lots of others. Later as you make progress, breathing exercisers should become less and less important. And if you can get to ~60CP, then breathing exercises are not necessary anymore, just physical exercise.

I really recommend reading Buteyko's lecture or one of Arthur's books, they sould answer most, if not all of your questions.

Thanks for the reply! It's all very interesting, but what causes over-breathing in the first place?

@silver

Probably it's a combination of our lifestyles and our environment.
I think it's more environmen than lifestyle.
Buteyko said that there's not enough carbon dioxide in the air (0.03% instead of 7%) and that there's too much oxigen (21% instead of 2%). And Frolov believed that this is because humams are polluting the planet, (so it might have something to do with global warming?)
Sadly it wasn't really researched afaik so these are mainly speculations.

I found this in Buteyko's lecture:
"However, the cells of animals and humans—i.e., cells of the heart, brain, and kidneys—still need about 7% CO2 and only 2% O2 in the surrounding environment, in order to survive. But now the air has 10 times more oxygen and 250 times less carbon dioxide. It is not suitable for our cells, as its composition is very different from what our cells need. [12]

This fact is confirmed by embryology: During recent years, detailed studies of gas-blood exchange were finally done in both human and animal embryos. It was found that during those 9 months, we live in an environment that has 3–4 times less oxygen and 1.5 times more CO2 (both as partial pressures) in comparison with adults. Obviously, the organism of the mother creates similar conditions for the embryo to what they were a billion years ago. This supports the Law of Haeckel-Severtsev: “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” [*in other words, the embryo, in its development, repeats the general evolutionary stages]."

Posted by: @uwu

And Frolov believed that this is because humams are polluting the planet, (so it might have something to do with global warming?)

Interestingly, at the moment, O2 levels are dropping and CO2 levels increasing, which according to the Buteyko framework should mean that the atmosphere is changing in a way that is going to have a positive impact on the health of mankind.