The type of CFD described here seems to be the problem I suffer from. My face is very short-  almost round from the front. But my lower third looks very underdeveloped and child-like, with a weak chin and jawline, and protruding lips, as a result of my incisors being proclined outwards.

@EddieMoney If you have the time for a response, I'm curious if you could briefly explain the mechanism by which palatal expansion - or an improved oral posture, more broadly - would reduce this sort of CFD?

What about longer faces though? Is it actually possible to reduce the height of the front maxilla by widening and bringing down the molars? 

Looks like progress has been able to shorten the distance between his nose and teeth, but hard to tell

I wonder why philtrum length is so important for aesthetics 

@facegettingworseandworse

I'd believe so. I still do not have my wisdom teeth which seems to be the cause of why my midface and mandible is recessed (among other things). Hopefully I'll be able to bring the down to start erupting, and that'll bring some changes.

Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

What about longer faces though? Is it actually possible to reduce the height of the front maxilla by widening and bringing down the molars? 

Looks like progress has been able to shorten the distance between his nose and teeth, but hard to tell

I wonder why philtrum length is so important for aesthetics 

 

Are we talking true longer faces with vertical growth or faces that appear long due to midface ratios? I doubt the maxilla can be shortened. Widening can help though because if your face is long, it doesn't lack downward growth. What it may lack is width. 

Philtrum length itself is arbitrary and meaningless. But the ratio is important. Because a too long philtrum can make one look like they have no upper lip and it can make the midface longer. Usually people with long philtrums can widen their face to balance the midface ratio. 

Women probably would be more concerned about philtrum length since their lips ideally should pout more than a male and their lower face is ideally much shorter than a male. Someone like George Clooney has a long philtrum and nobody cares. It really isn't that big of a deal for men unless their midface ratio is thrown off by it. Usually guys who think their philtrum is too long really have a long midface ratio. 

I suppose a short lower third with a long philtrum can be a bad combo simply because the overall facial balance draws attention to the upper lip (or it's non existence). It creates a sort of "old lady" look. But again, the philtrum itself wouldn't be the only issue, but the lack of vertical growth and lip support. If both of those increase, the philtrum may not even shorten but a more prominent mandible would make the philtrum appear shorter.

Posted by: @elwynn

The type of CFD described here seems to be the problem I suffer from. My face is very short-  almost round from the front. But my lower third looks very underdeveloped and child-like, with a weak chin and jawline, and protruding lips, as a result of my incisors being proclined outwards.

@EddieMoney If you have the time for a response, I'm curious if you could briefly explain the mechanism by which palatal expansion - or an improved oral posture, more broadly - would reduce this sort of CFD?

Is your palate triangulated? As in shaped more like a triangle than an arch? Do you hold your teeth together at rest? 

Without seeing pics of your palate I would recommend measuring IMW to see if width is lacking. Then also intercanine width to see if the front of the arch needs to expand to flatten out. This flattening will make your face more wide which will allow the mandible to come forward and project more.

Lip seal needs to be perfected too. The tongue widens the palate while the lips keep the teeth properly angled. Lots of good threads on lip seal here. 

Mandible position is not considered by a lot of people, including oral myofunctional therapists (or at least they don't address it in their free advice). But I am willing to bet you may hold your mandible back in a way where your tongue's room was so restricted that it applied too much pressure to your incisors causing them to flare out. So holding your mandible a bit more forward may allow your tongue to cover the palate more and may allow your lower lip to seal against your lower incisors, causing them to retrocline, which increases chin projection.  

@eddiemoney

Yeah I think that's the case for me. I think my face may  just be long because of the midface ratio but not necessarily as a whole. I wonder if wisdom teeth extractions have an effect on this (im not getting mine extracted)

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Short faces have weak maxilla growth in adult life. The maxilla is too vertically short. The teeth are very high up in the face but without necessarily being close to the nose. 

This is the overbite profile. Vertical deficiency. Weak lower third. Even if chin is strong, it usually doesn't add anything to the face because mandibular projection is held back. Usually the molars dropping and teeth labially tipping can both elongate the lower face while shortening the philtrum. The lips then pout more and the chin moves ahead. Profile goes from being flat and unimposing to more projecting without looking too coarse /bony. 

Ideally this mesofacial profile is good on most people. 

In this situation the soft tissue projects slightly ahead of the brow. And while the chin appears less pointed the overall projection is better. Balance between soft tissue and bony prominence. The lower third is a bit longer but not by a lot. 

This reminds me of a guy I saw once. He had a very short face, his nose was very short but straight, his chin projected noticeably as if he had an Habsburg chin. Overall he looked a bit like Tarantino. Meanwhile I am on the other end of the sprectrum. Every feature of my face is like one centimeter longer than ideal. At the end of the day it's all about balance, the golden ratio. Too short is bad, too long is also bad, basically mesofacial skulls are ideal.

@eddiemoney

Thank you for your reply.

Is your palate triangulated? As in shaped more like a triangle than an arch? Do you hold your teeth together at rest?

Without seeing pics of your palate I would recommend measuring IMW to see if width is lacking. Then also intercanine width to see if the front of the arch needs to expand to flatten out. This flattening will make your face more wide which will allow the mandible to come forward and project more.

My palate is an arch. My IMW is 42 mm, which seems greater than the average for a person with CFD; but I have large teeth, so I could still use more expansion. I had an functional orthodontist admit as much. It's also confirmed by the fact that I have some teeth crowding around my molars, a high-vaulted palate, and lower and upper incisors that project forwards, along with the gums themselves. Here's a childish illustration of the side-view:

Mandible position is not considered by a lot of people, including oral myofunctional therapists (or at least they don't address it in their free advice). But I am willing to bet you may hold your mandible back in a way where your tongue's room was so restricted that it applied too much pressure to your incisors causing them to flare out.

Growing up, I had an overbite caused by holding my mandible too far back. But the main problem was that I was a mouth-breather. My mouth was always open, and my tongue would never rest on my upper palate (not even by the tip). So, I hardly ever applied any pressure on my incisors as a kid.

When I had standard orthodontic treatment in my early teens (12-14), the orthodontist suggested extracting 4 molars. I resisted, and he performed the "treatment" without extractions. I remember that rubber bands and springs were used in an effort to align my bite. Unfortunately, the only end result besides straight teeth was that my incisors were flared out. I didn't have proclined teeth initially; I only developed them either during orthodontic "treatment", or soon after the "treatment".

I know that you're an advocate for keeping the teeth slightly apart, but I think that in my case - since I was a mouth breather for most of my life - it makes more sense to keep my teeth together (without clenching, of course). I find that I can maintain a tongue suction hold and a lip seal only when my teeth are together. When they're apart, even slightly, I struggle to keep anything close to a good oral posture.

So holding your mandible a bit more forward may allow your tongue to cover the palate more and may allow your lower lip to seal against your lower incisors, causing them to retrocline, which increases chin projection.

This is basically what I've been doing for the past few months. I understand that if I make progress in increasing my IMW, then my flared-out incisors will retrocline, and make my chin more pronounced. I also understand that widening the palate would flatten it out. My question is: as the palate widens and flattens out, where does the high point of the palatal vault go? Does it move downward, closer to the level of the molars, or does it remain roughly where it is, while the teeth move upward to align themselves closer to the high point of the palate? Also, what effect would this have on the nose? Would it decrease the dorsal bump, or make it more prominent?

The only difference I can see is philtrum length vs lower lip - chin length. 

also cloony has less ramus 

I can shorten my philtrum by smililing. I can make it sit 2mm higher and it makes all the difference, but if I don't smile for a while it goes back. Not sure if I should keep doing it though, I worry that if I build strength in the philtrum, it'll be harder for it to shorten in the future when I expand and rotate

@eddiemoney hey are you still there? Your post really helped me thank you! It put one of the puzzle pieces together for me. I realize now one of my main issues and reasons for lack of results is horrible lip seal, even though i thought i was doing it correctly. When i sealed lower lip against lower teeth, than my chin looks so much better!