I don't know that the effects of facepulling cause rotation. To me I have seen people only get monkey faces, not any rotation. 

What the hell is a monkey face?

Also I would assume rotation should happen if you pull upwards too because the bone will very slowly move and the mandible should move too over time. This happens all the time with Le Forts and other procedures which surgically move/correct bones so I figure it has to be similar with slow force movements too.

Haven't heard this, and I know multiple people actively pulling. What angle do you pull at and why do you use a trashbag rather than a belt? Doesn't it stretch and tear?

Just pull laterally and at an angle upward and forwards with steady tension.

I use bags because I don't want to bite and leave teeth marks on my belts. LOL. They don't rip if you fold them over and evenly pull from both sides with teeth in the exact middle.

I thought it would influence the mandible since its the lower counterpart and connected to the maxilla.

Posted by: Keengo

What the hell is a monkey face?

Also I would assume rotation should happen if you pull upwards too because the bone will very slowly move and the mandible should move too over time. This happens all the time with Le Forts and other procedures which surgically move/correct bones so I figure it has to be similar with slow force movements too.

A monkey face to me is when the upper jaw makes the chin look weaker. Where the chin loses projection and the upper jaw sticks out. Like the maxilla gets stretched forward but the mandible doesn't fit it correctly anymore like a bimax type profile (which is the monkey look) 

But I did google face pulling results and they don't seem consistent. Some faces grow forward but the goal is to really grow rotationally as you said. Good luck with your efforts. 

Incosistency could be explained by:

1. varying starting points. There seems to be plenty of structural diversity among people with craniofacial dystrophy,. Only pulling maxilla forward has limited value. For some the real "deficit" is elsewhere in the skull.

2. Variation between how people pull, in which position they pull, whether they pull with arms or doorhandle etc. Engaging certain postural muscles locks in certain bones of the skull, which is part of why professionals want to loosen the patient up and induce relaxation before any kind of cranial work.

3. Nonexistent classification between unwinding of skeletal tension, sutural growth and bone reshaping. It could be possible that these are all distinct mechanisms with distinct aesthetic consequences.

Where else could the issue be? I'd assume that a droopy/recessed maxilla would be the only cause of a high gonial angle/jaw. Sure I've seen some people who have high angle jaws but part of that is genetic facial shape -- the factor is supposed to be how the maxilla can influence this beyond the natural growth itself

I don't know why people would facepull. The forces are not constant enough to effect change over time. Most of what you do will revert back after you cease the activity. The fact it barely has success stories and more people develop problems from it to me is indication to stay away from it. It is basically self attempted surgery. Good luck trying to remold your own face with tools like belts or towels. Also how can you know the forces are even when you pull? 

Posted by: Keengo

Where else could the issue be? I'd assume that a droopy/recessed maxilla would be the only cause of a high gonial angle/jaw. Sure I've seen some people who have high angle jaws but part of that is genetic facial shape -- the factor is supposed to be how the maxilla can influence this beyond the natural growth itself

A high gonial angle is a female trait. As the female maxilla is proportionally narrower it causes the mandible to sit further back thus increasing the gonial angle.

However some men have this naturally and my theory is due to less prenatal T exposure. However them widening their arch to their genetic limit would decrease the gonial angle to its genetic potential in theory. 

However some women with bruxism develop more masculine jaws with a gonial angle closer to 90 degrees. This is probably due to masseter hypertrophy which then causes the ramus to grow down. So even women can have low gonial angles but they develop them over time.

This is why many people who want jaw development chew a lot, to imitate this. Also i think the pressure from chewing drives the maxilla upwards which then swings into the face, making the jaw come forward to meet it 

Posted by: EddieMoney

I don't know why people would facepull. The forces are not constant enough to effect change over time. Most of what you do will revert back after you cease the activity. The fact it barely has success stories and more people develop problems from it to me is indication to stay away from it. It is basically self attempted surgery. Good luck trying to remold your own face with tools like belts or towels. Also how can you know the forces are even when you pull? 

I've seen enough transformations and spoken to enough people to know that it works. Mechanical loading does not need to be applied 24/7. Or are you saying tennis players who frequently have 30% more bone volume in their playing arm are always striking a ball? I could just as easily say to you, "good luck trying to remold your own face with your tongue." Equally laughable statements to someone unfamiliar with orthotropics. 

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: Keengo

Where else could the issue be? I'd assume that a droopy/recessed maxilla would be the only cause of a high gonial angle/jaw. Sure I've seen some people who have high angle jaws but part of that is genetic facial shape -- the factor is supposed to be how the maxilla can influence this beyond the natural growth itself

A high gonial angle is a female trait. As the female maxilla is proportionally narrower it causes the mandible to sit further back thus increasing the gonial angle.

However some men have this naturally and my theory is due to less prenatal T exposure. However them widening their arch to their genetic limit would decrease the gonial angle to its genetic potential in theory. 

However some women with bruxism develop more masculine jaws with a gonial angle closer to 90 degrees. This is probably due to masseter hypertrophy which then causes the ramus to grow down. So even women can have low gonial angles but they develop them over time.

This is why many people who want jaw development chew a lot, to imitate this. Also i think the pressure from chewing drives the maxilla upwards which then swings into the face, making the jaw come forward to meet it 

A female trait? Where did you hear that? I figured it was a trait of either poorer genetics that cause a higher tendency for droopy faces and/or maybe a shitty combination of heavy mouth breathing and other environmental factors that can affect people susceptible to these changes that occur.

When looking at pictures of myself as a kid, I did not have a high gonial angle -- I had a pretty much square-ish face. At about 13+ my face got longer and the gonial angle grew and kind of rotated clockwise (the worst way). Luckily I managed to combat this by learning of this stuff and seeing some slight changes, but the angle really doesn't bother me anymore as it doesn't make me look feminine even if it's a so-called "female trait" as you claim

I'm more worrisome over the forward growth, which is pretty weak even though I've improved it. My face was a legit "melted face" around a year ago.

Posted by: Keengo

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: Keengo

Where else could the issue be? I'd assume that a droopy/recessed maxilla would be the only cause of a high gonial angle/jaw. Sure I've seen some people who have high angle jaws but part of that is genetic facial shape -- the factor is supposed to be how the maxilla can influence this beyond the natural growth itself

A high gonial angle is a female trait. As the female maxilla is proportionally narrower it causes the mandible to sit further back thus increasing the gonial angle.

However some men have this naturally and my theory is due to less prenatal T exposure. However them widening their arch to their genetic limit would decrease the gonial angle to its genetic potential in theory. 

However some women with bruxism develop more masculine jaws with a gonial angle closer to 90 degrees. This is probably due to masseter hypertrophy which then causes the ramus to grow down. So even women can have low gonial angles but they develop them over time.

This is why many people who want jaw development chew a lot, to imitate this. Also i think the pressure from chewing drives the maxilla upwards which then swings into the face, making the jaw come forward to meet it 

A female trait? Where did you hear that? I figured it was a trait of either poorer genetics that cause a higher tendency for droopy faces and/or maybe a shitty combination of heavy mouth breathing and other environmental factors that can affect people susceptible to these changes that occur.

 

When looking at pictures of myself as a kid, I did not have a high gonial angle -- I had a pretty much square-ish face. At about 13+ my face got longer and the gonial angle grew and kind of rotated clockwise (the worst way). Luckily I managed to combat this by learning of this stuff and seeing some slight changes, but the angle really doesn't bother me anymore as it doesn't make me look feminine even if it's a so-called "female trait" as you claim

I'm more worrisome over the forward growth, which is pretty weak even though I've improved it. My face was a legit "melted face" around a year ago.

It's a dimorphic trait and one of the reasons male faces have a "taller" lower third than female faces. The female jaw in humans is set back further. See attachment and if it doesn't work, see this link 

When talking about gonial angle, do you mean the ramus height? My face looks a lot like the male skull you show but just a higher ramus

Ramus height will contribute, yes. So if you look closely the male ramus is actually longer so the gonial angle is lessened. 

Of course your skull looks like the male skull. It probably just has the mandible set further back due to a narrow arch or drooping maxilla.

The thing is, women don't need to have a drooping maxilla to have a higher gonial angle. Their faces are just shaped differently than ours and their maxilla is proportionally narrower. Look how in the pic the woman's incisors seem to poke out more. But what this is is just her arch is narrower which then makes the mandible sit back further. This on top of the fact that the woman has a shorter ramus gives them a higher gonial angle. 

I know it's really weird. I mean I know I'm not unattractive, but it just seems like tiny little setbacks can ruin your entire facial potential/harmony

Since I had a normal, forward growth and jaw pre-teens I'm destined to get my face the way it SHOULD have been more like. I guess I'm lucky in that even with improper facial proportions my face still isn't unattractive, but it's still not quite the "ideal" way. I think it's more with maxilla set back because I have really high cheekbones and generally good facial harmony all around, especially after mewing for a while, but I'm still not quite there yet.

Don't really know about the facepulling anymore though. Even if it did give 100% success I don't want to have to be yanking my face to keep it that way LOL

Posted by: Keengo

I know it's really weird. I mean I know I'm not unattractive, but it just seems like tiny little setbacks can ruin your entire facial potential/harmony

Since I had a normal, forward growth and jaw pre-teens I'm destined to get my face the way it SHOULD have been more like. I guess I'm lucky in that even with improper facial proportions my face still isn't unattractive, but it's still not quite the "ideal" way. I think it's more with maxilla set back because I have really high cheekbones and generally good facial harmony all around, especially after mewing for a while, but I'm still not quite there yet.

Don't really know about the facepulling anymore though. Even if it did give 100% success I don't want to have to be yanking my face to keep it that way LOL

I have the same issue and can relate 100%. My recessed maxilla is truthfully what kills my facial aesthetics and I know I cannot maximize my looks until I rotate my maxilla counterclockwise. I know my chin isn't weak due to a deficient jaw and I know the rest of my features aren't asymmetrical or in wrong proportion.

I googled ssome face pulling results and some look good. Others look worse than the before pic. I don't know that results are typical tbh. Some after pics just looked like facepulling gave them a weird look where their mouth looked too far forward and with 0 rotation. My fear with facepulling is that it is hard to know whether the forced you give are symmetrical. 

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: Keengo

I know it's really weird. I mean I know I'm not unattractive, but it just seems like tiny little setbacks can ruin your entire facial potential/harmony

Since I had a normal, forward growth and jaw pre-teens I'm destined to get my face the way it SHOULD have been more like. I guess I'm lucky in that even with improper facial proportions my face still isn't unattractive, but it's still not quite the "ideal" way. I think it's more with maxilla set back because I have really high cheekbones and generally good facial harmony all around, especially after mewing for a while, but I'm still not quite there yet.

Don't really know about the facepulling anymore though. Even if it did give 100% success I don't want to have to be yanking my face to keep it that way LOL

I have the same issue and can relate 100%. My recessed maxilla is truthfully what kills my facial aesthetics and I know I cannot maximize my looks until I rotate my maxilla counterclockwise. I know my chin isn't weak due to a deficient jaw and I know the rest of my features aren't asymmetrical or in wrong proportion.

I googled ssome face pulling results and some look good. Others look worse than the before pic. I don't know that results are typical tbh. Some after pics just looked like facepulling gave them a weird look where their mouth looked too far forward and with 0 rotation. My fear with facepulling is that it is hard to know whether the forced you give are symmetrical. 

Results are dependent on the angle of force application. If your jawline formed a right angle with the back of your skull, you'd want to pull at roughly 60 degrees. This is what I've determined to be optimal thru conversations with others. Balancing the forces is not a real hurdle. I can do it easily enough just pulling by hand. I tend to favor one side though because of asymmetrical recession. Ideally you will secure your pulling apparatus to a bar, equidistant on both sides 

Posted by: voltaire

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: Keengo

I know it's really weird. I mean I know I'm not unattractive, but it just seems like tiny little setbacks can ruin your entire facial potential/harmony

Since I had a normal, forward growth and jaw pre-teens I'm destined to get my face the way it SHOULD have been more like. I guess I'm lucky in that even with improper facial proportions my face still isn't unattractive, but it's still not quite the "ideal" way. I think it's more with maxilla set back because I have really high cheekbones and generally good facial harmony all around, especially after mewing for a while, but I'm still not quite there yet.

Don't really know about the facepulling anymore though. Even if it did give 100% success I don't want to have to be yanking my face to keep it that way LOL

I have the same issue and can relate 100%. My recessed maxilla is truthfully what kills my facial aesthetics and I know I cannot maximize my looks until I rotate my maxilla counterclockwise. I know my chin isn't weak due to a deficient jaw and I know the rest of my features aren't asymmetrical or in wrong proportion.

I googled ssome face pulling results and some look good. Others look worse than the before pic. I don't know that results are typical tbh. Some after pics just looked like facepulling gave them a weird look where their mouth looked too far forward and with 0 rotation. My fear with facepulling is that it is hard to know whether the forced you give are symmetrical. 

Results are dependent on the angle of force application. If your jawline formed a right angle with the back of your skull, you'd want to pull at roughly 60 degrees. This is what I've determined to be optimal thru conversations with others. Balancing the forces is not a real hurdle. I can do it easily enough just pulling by hand. I tend to favor one side though because of asymmetrical recession. Ideally you will secure your pulling apparatus to a bar, equidistant on both sides 

Pictures illustrating this would be great

Just measured my gonial/jaw angle and it's actually no different than before mewing. 

My facial phenotype is similar to this guy's: 

I think my angle is a little less downsloped than his, but looking at old pics it would seem my face looks far less like the "melted" look, but strangely the angle has virtually no change. How would this make sense? If your face grows more forward, doesn't the gonial angle have to change somewhat?

How else would the "melted" look go away if the lower jaw is still too sloped?

Posted by: Keengo

Just measured my gonial/jaw angle and it's actually no different than before mewing. 

My facial phenotype is similar to this guy's: 

I think my angle is a little less downsloped than his, but looking at old pics it would seem my face looks far less like the "melted" look, but strangely the angle has virtually no change. How would this make sense? If your face grows more forward, doesn't the gonial angle have to change somewhat?

How else would the "melted" look go away if the lower jaw is still too sloped?

How long have you been mewing? Have you seen other changes?

I've been mewing about 4-6 months. The only change I've seen is forward growth and cheekbone prominence -- seems to be virtually nothing with the mandible. I know this isn't right because pretty much no one in my family has a down-swinging, high-angular mandible -- so it's hardly genetic.

I've heard that the angle at which you face pull can influence the CCW/CW rotation when the bone remodels. Any more specifics on this?

I've read more about this on other threads, but can't recall now

I've been experimenting with putting my thumbs in my mouth at a ~60 degree angle, pushing up and out and placed on the rugae, trying to avoid touching or pressing on teeth directly, and then my index fingers resting on my forehead. I stop when I feel the intermaxillary suture feel different which takes about 30 seconds or so. I'm hoping to see some validation of this method or start a better method before I experiment more. Anyone with good results or seen good results know if this is a good method or no? It seems like maybe I'm encouraging forward growth of the maxilla, maybe some other effects, but I don't know what to attribute to this and what's a result of my other practices to be honest. Nothing bad has occurred yet. I started this about a month ago and do it infrequently.

eta: I also do face pulling in a Mackenzie chin tuck as well

@greensmoothies,

You're definitely on to something. It's very experimental, and I can't say anything for sure, but I think that this idea of frequent low tension pulling is going to one of the main ways for adults to grow the face. I didn't want to say much before I had some real results but since you brought it up I'll tell you what I know.

First of all, I got the idea from a different community who are trying things similar to here, but not involving the skull. One of the posters there came up with the idea that instead of putting pressure all day long using a device, to instead use the hands to manipulate the area for a few minutes at a time about once every hour or so. His reasoning was that this constant reminder to the body to change would induce mitosis of the cells and lead to growth. This idea was so powerful and worked so well that it completely took over the entire community and everyone started doing it with good results. After reading about it, and seeing the parallels to what we are doing here, I decided that I wanted to try it on the skull to see if it would work.

I've just barely started testing things, and I'm using this method to create expansion and not forward growth, but I did buy a digital caliper so that I could have real proof of my results and what I can say so far is this: After I spent an entire day chewing gum, my intermolar width did not change at all. After I spent an entire day doing super hard mewing, my intermolar width did not change at all. But after I spent an entire day using my hands to do gentle expansion of the palate without touching the teeth at all for 2 minutes at a time every hour, my intermolar width changed from 31.88mm to 32.04mm and I was able to retain this expansion by sleeping with an expander in at night (actually it went up to 32.08mm overnight). I know it's not much but that was just after one day of doing the gentle pulling and I am one hundred percent positive that my measurements were accurate.

Here's the quote from the inventor that I edited to make sense for our purposes:

Your hands are the best expansion device. You can use them to expand whenever you have the time and space to do it. And if you use my methodology -- 2 minutes expansion session on an hourly basis, your suture will grow faster than when wearing devices. Plus, your suture rests between pulling sessions.

My routine was like this; to expand for 2 minutes on the hour, all day long. This regime works great because you stress the suture for 2 minutes, then let it rest for an hour before the next expansion session. At home I expanded as often as my suture would tolerate. I would end up with a slightly sore suture by night time, but that gave me assurance that it got stressed nicely to encourage growth. Then I started wearing an expander for retention.

Like I said, this is very experimental stuff, and I wanted to wait for more results before bringing the idea here, but since you are already toying with it I figured I'd drop some of what I know here in case it helps.

Wonderful experiment

when facepulling, you want the cloth/belt/insert implement to be seated as far back in the mouth as possible, ideally the rear most molars. This targets the posterior maxilla best

Posted by: voltaire

Wonderful experiment

 

when facepulling, you want the cloth/belt/insert implement to be seated as far back in the mouth as possible, ideally the rear most molars. This targets the posterior maxilla best

Agreed about pulling from as far back as possible.

@allixa Okay I will try by the molars like that from now on, really appreciate the tip. Do you think doing the pulling in a Mackenzie chin tuck has benefit or is important somehow, I read that tip on a comment on the claiming power blog

But wow your results and info about the face pulling are very intriguing and encouraging. Yes I will jump on trying this method after I get some tools for tracking progress. My maxilla has built up in the past month but I wasn't sure if maybe OMC was doing that.

This is really exciting because honestly I agree this could be important, I was too afraid to do face pulling before and it was like my maxilla didn't budge at all in 5 years of mewing...

So pulling with the back molars/farthest back teeth encourages growth from the rear of the maxilla? How does this work?

My understand was that the angle you pulled influenced it. If you pulled downwards you'd expect the bottom of the maxilla to come forward and the top to roll back some -- the same with pulling upwards/laterally but reverse (top moves forward and the lower part goes back). Pulling straight ahead would be the most even method I would think, if any of this makes picture perfect sense. Either way I can't tell which way 100% anything moves -- I just know it's pretty much forward-ish.

In any case does this really move the maxilla/bones, as in actual movement? Or is this just bone remodeling happening very slowly?

I'm still pulling but I notice it takes longer/more effort now to feel any difference. In the beginning the change seemed almost instant, but now it's harder/like more resistance to do it and it takes more time before you actually feel it. I pull forward, up, and down as much as possible.

Posted by: Keengo

So pulling with the back molars/farthest back teeth encourages growth from the rear of the maxilla? How does this work?

My understand was that the angle you pulled influenced it. If you pulled downwards you'd expect the bottom of the maxilla to come forward and the top to roll back some -- the same with pulling upwards/laterally but reverse (top moves forward and the lower part goes back). Pulling straight ahead would be the most even method I would think, if any of this makes picture perfect sense. Either way I can't tell which way 100% anything moves -- I just know it's pretty much forward-ish.

In any case does this really move the maxilla/bones, as in actual movement? Or is this just bone remodeling happening very slowly?

I'm still pulling but I notice it takes longer/more effort now to feel any difference. In the beginning the change seemed almost instant, but now it's harder/like more resistance to do it and it takes more time before you actually feel it. I pull forward, up, and down as much as possible.

Yes, I wonder about pulling from the backmost molars vs more toward the front as well. I read on claiming power about how some people were doing face pulling with fingers behind the incisors/canines like I described above. Sorry I can't remember what the rationale there was though. If anyone knows please explain why one placement is better than the other, thanks in advance. @voltaire says pulling from backmost molars targets the posterior maxilla best. Maybe it could be that both ways do something a little different and both produce desirable results, OR one method isn't as good as the other. But one thing's for certain we want to establish best practices and know what's bad practice.

You advocate pulling straight ahead and believe it stabilises the force somehow (if I understand correctly). I'm wondering if up and out might be better, with fingers places coming out of the mouth at a 60 degree angle (the angle mentioned previously by another poster ITT)? Or maybe pull strait ahead but with head in a Mackenzie chin tuck?

Personally I don't know if bones are moving but it seems at least the remodeling potential is there, the explanation of the method rings true for me, makes sense with respect to what I know about the science behind all this and I believe I've observed the effect.

Would this pulling method be for expansion primarily? What about counterclockwise rotation?

It might work for both, but I don't know yet. All I have done so far is show that gentle pulling spaced throughout the day can change the bones. If you're interested in it why not try it for yourself.

Anyone with questions, my only advice is to experiment and report back with what you find.

Does anyone have any ideas on if there's a point of diminishing returns on face pulling? Mike Mew mentioned that he had headgear/pulling devices tested on kids for 12 hours or so per day. These headgear/reverse pulling devices are pretty similar to face pulling but are more "automatic" in that there's no effort needed to pull it yourself. I don't know the force differences, but the results came for the kids in a matter of months (there's a video on this with Mike Mew you can probably find). In any case would this suggest that there's no immediate diminishing returns on face pulling too?

It should be done as often as possible for as long as possible? I mean I sure as hell can't face pull with a bag 12+ hours a day, but you get the point probably

damn, if you expand your palate you will have 10/10 jaw for real

damn, if you expand your palate you will have 10/10 jaw for real

Expanding the palate affects the mandible? I thought it only made the maxilla wider maybe, which then would expand the cheekbones -- not necessarily the jaw. Not a bad thing anyways since a big/wide jaw/mandible is a pretty dimorphic and good trait for guys especially so I can't complain. LOL

facepulling is less about palate expansion and more about forward growth

high angle - 60+ degrees - is what has been recommended by the most accomplished pullers

Posted by: voltaire

facepulling is less about palate expansion and more about forward growth

high angle - 60+ degrees - is what has been recommended by the most accomplished pullers

Do you happen to know if these accomplished pullers will pull from the front of the palate or as far back as possible? I've heard good things about both methods.

Far back as possible. One reason being development reasons, and the other being structural integrity. The forces we're pulling with can only be safely resisted by the molars