Every since I started mewing the area under my jaw has gotten stretchier so when I mew my tongue pushes it outwards somewhat. Are there any exercises to combat this? My main issue with it is it really hinders my posterior thirds ability to be pressed firmly against the back of my palate since the back of the tongue is lower because of it. Cheers :]
What do you mean stretchier? Are you talking about the submental region? As in, you look fatter now?
After googling it, yeah that region. I suppose it does make me look fatter when I do mew lol. The force of the tongue (even minimally so) is pushing that region down and since the base of the tongue is following it, I'm losing palate support. I hope that clears it up
Does the bulge go away if you push your tongue forward some by dropping the tip down and putting it against your teeth instead of on the spot?
more so, yeah. but we don't want to touch the teeth though, right?
It could just be your posture but that bulge seems to happen to people who don't have enough forward growth for their tongue to be on the spot and the posterior third to be on the palate at the same time. It's almost like the tongue is getting pushed down into the throat because it has nowhere else to go.
You can try messing around with your posture until you find a way to get your tongue up without the bulge happening perhaps by lifting your hyoid or suctioning the posterior part of your tongue and then pushing up, or you can push your tongue forward and just focus on getting the posterior and middle part up against as much of the palate as you can until you gain more forward space. This is what I did and it worked. If you do this posture your maxilla might rotate downwards slightly temporarily but it will move forward as well.
Experiment and see what you can make happen. Use my advice to figure out what to do on your own because your situation might be different than my assumption. Having the bulge there is definitely a sign that some changes need to be made though. In an ideal scenario the tongue would never come near the teeth, but everyone's case is different and sometimes you have to break the rules and come up with your own temporary postures in order to make progress.
Much appreciated
Like Allixa mentioned that is your tongue muscle bulging down from the origin point at the genio. There is just not enough sagittal space in your jaws for it to spread fully so it bulges downward at the easiest spot.
my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/
do you guys think face pulling is worth pursuing to remedy this?
it's the closed-jaw posture that pushes the jaw forward right? not just up
Yes expanding the upper jaw should reduce this problem, but face pulling plato (sp?) style hardly does anything.
Closing the jaws sets the stage for proper posture. Once you initiate correct tongue posture the muscle expands from being pressed against the palate in both transverse and sagittal directions. However, when the jaws are too small the tongue is forced to compensate in awkward ways such as folding in a u-shape and bulging in the submental region. The first is a transverse compensation while the second, which you are experiencing, is a sagittal compensation.
my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/
Yes expanding the upper jaw should reduce this problem, but face pulling plato (sp?) style hardly does anything.
Closing the jaws sets the stage for proper posture. Once you initiate correct tongue posture the muscle expands from being pressed against the palate in both transverse and sagittal directions. However, when the jaws are too small the tongue is forced to compensate in awkward ways such as folding in a u-shape and bulging in the submental region. The first is a transverse compensation while the second, which you are experiencing, is a sagittal compensation.
will this make the submental skin sag more long term?
Yes expanding the upper jaw should reduce this problem, but face pulling plato (sp?) style hardly does anything.
Closing the jaws sets the stage for proper posture. Once you initiate correct tongue posture the muscle expands from being pressed against the palate in both transverse and sagittal directions. However, when the jaws are too small the tongue is forced to compensate in awkward ways such as folding in a u-shape and bulging in the submental region. The first is a transverse compensation while the second, which you are experiencing, is a sagittal compensation.
will this make the submental skin sag more long term?
I am not sure specifically, but I know a tongue that is sitting low in the mouth causes sagging and a double chin and it only increases with age.
my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/
It could just be your posture but that bulge seems to happen to people who don't have enough forward growth for their tongue to be on the spot and the posterior third to be on the palate at the same time. It's almost like the tongue is getting pushed down into the throat because it has nowhere else to go.
You can try messing around with your posture until you find a way to get your tongue up without the bulge happening perhaps by lifting your hyoid or suctioning the posterior part of your tongue and then pushing up, or you can push your tongue forward and just focus on getting the posterior and middle part up against as much of the palate as you can until you gain more forward space. This is what I did and it worked. If you do this posture your maxilla might rotate downwards slightly temporarily but it will move forward as well.
Experiment and see what you can make happen. Use my advice to figure out what to do on your own because your situation might be different than my assumption. Having the bulge there is definitely a sign that some changes need to be made though. In an ideal scenario the tongue would never come near the teeth, but everyone's case is different and sometimes you have to break the rules and come up with your own temporary postures in order to make progress.
That sounds like it would cause bimax. In fact bimax is caused by the tongue thrusting on the teeth. It may make your profile look good in the short term but I don't know why anyone should risk bimax just to make their neck look tighter. Where did you get this idea to break the rules? Are you a professional guiding people on their journey? Why would you recommend a posture without knowing the specific situation? I find this irresponsible.
OP, suck it up. You can fraud a good posture but you may make more damage due to you being self conscious about one problem. If you put your tongue against your teeth then you will start complaining about your lips having a monkey effect. Why cause another problem to falsely alleviate one?
The reason your profile looks tje way it does is because your jaw is too far back. But be patient and aim for the desired effects instead of just inventing your own posture. Are you being guided by a professional? If not I suggest seek that instead of people on a message board . People here largely are just theorizing based on their own situations but yours is unique so take everything here with a grain of salt.
I don't have a problem with how it looks, just that it seems to be influencing how much I can get the back of my tongue up. I'm probably gonna stick to usual routine w/ tip behind the teeth and research how to make that area more taut
I don't have a problem with how it looks, just that it seems to be influencing how much I can get the back of my tongue up. I'm probably gonna stick to usual routine w/ tip behind the teeth and research how to make that area more taut
The maxillary movement over time will achieve this. Understand that desired effects take time. To assume proper posture doing a chin tuck means you will have that sag due to your high gonial angle for now. The other option is to assume head forward posture.
I have been able to expand my maxilla by first pushing on the posterior palate where the back third of your tongue would be at first. What matters is that you push on that part of the palate to expand it so you can make room little by little.
Just know putting the tongue behind teeth can cause bimax which may give you more tautness in the neck area but won't move your maxilla much . Get your tongue to push on the posterior palate to imitate the back third motion and eventually your tongue will carve our space by widening your palate. That's what I did. I couldn't get my tongue all the way to the incisive papilla so I just made sure to push on the posterior palate which still widened my arch over time. This way teeth are untouched and expansion still happens since the area the posterior 3rd would push on eventually is still stimulated.
yeah, by behind I meant on the incisive papilla; not touching the teeth.
appreciate the help
It could just be your posture but that bulge seems to happen to people who don't have enough forward growth for their tongue to be on the spot and the posterior third to be on the palate at the same time. It's almost like the tongue is getting pushed down into the throat because it has nowhere else to go.
You can try messing around with your posture until you find a way to get your tongue up without the bulge happening perhaps by lifting your hyoid or suctioning the posterior part of your tongue and then pushing up, or you can push your tongue forward and just focus on getting the posterior and middle part up against as much of the palate as you can until you gain more forward space. This is what I did and it worked. If you do this posture your maxilla might rotate downwards slightly temporarily but it will move forward as well.
Experiment and see what you can make happen. Use my advice to figure out what to do on your own because your situation might be different than my assumption. Having the bulge there is definitely a sign that some changes need to be made though. In an ideal scenario the tongue would never come near the teeth, but everyone's case is different and sometimes you have to break the rules and come up with your own temporary postures in order to make progress.
That sounds like it would cause bimax. In fact bimax is caused by the tongue thrusting on the teeth. It may make your profile look good in the short term but I don't know why anyone should risk bimax just to make their neck look tighter. Where did you get this idea to break the rules? Are you a professional guiding people on their journey? Why would you recommend a posture without knowing the specific situation? I find this irresponsible.
OP, suck it up. You can fraud a good posture but you may make more damage due to you being self conscious about one problem. If you put your tongue against your teeth then you will start complaining about your lips having a monkey effect. Why cause another problem to falsely alleviate one?
The reason your profile looks tje way it does is because your jaw is too far back. But be patient and aim for the desired effects instead of just inventing your own posture. Are you being guided by a professional? If not I suggest seek that instead of people on a message board . People here largely are just theorizing based on their own situations but yours is unique so take everything here with a grain of salt.
You bring up some good points.
The goal of the technique is to make room for the posterior part of the tongue to fit up against the palate. In order to do this the front of the tongue goes forward past the spot or sometimes even down, but it never ever pushes outwards against the teeth. It will not cause bimax whatsoever. The goal isn't to push the teeth forward, it's to be able to push the posterior and middle part of the tongue upwards against the palate. Depending on how much CFD a person has keeping a 'correct' posture will not allow for any forward growth. If a person has very severe CFD then the 'spot' might be vertically right above the middle of the tongue which means that pushing on it is basically pushing straight upwards with no forward force at all.
The technique is a very temporary one that a person uses just until they gain enough forward movement to be able to go back to a normal posture where the tip can fit onto the palate again either on the spot or just behind the front teeth. But yes, it's experimental and everyone has to figure out if it's good for them or not on their own. I said as much in my last post.
And I didn't come up with this idea. I read about it and decided to try it, and it worked for me. I used to get a huge bulge when mewing properly, then I did this for a few months and now I can fit the tip of my tongue perfectly on the spot with no issues and no bulge while the posterior part of my tongue is also firmly against my palate. It worked for me but it may have rotated my maxilla downwards slightly at first which I warned about too.
Here's the post I read (right click -> view image for full size):
Everyone should decide for themselves what to do, and my advice is that if you have any doubts AT ALL, that you should stay away from experimental stuff.
As for being a professional or not, I can't even tell you how many professionals I went to that gave me the complete opposite advice of what I should have been doing. And I remember reading that you said you had a bad experience with an orthodontist as well, so I'm not sure that we should worry about who is a professional or not. The only person whose advice I would trust right now is Mike Mew and yes I have asked this question to him and we will see if he chooses to answer it in his next Q&A video. It has also been asked to Sarah Hornsby as well.
It certainly is a lot more comfortable + no bulging action. I could see myself doing it if isn't bad for teeth. Tbh I have a pretty decently forward jaw but a rather long tongue so I guess that's my problem.
It certainly is a lot more comfortable + no bulging action. I could see myself doing it if isn't bad for teeth. Tbh I have a pretty decently forward jaw but a rather long tongue so I guess that's my problem.
My situation is similar to yours. Decently forward jaw but my upper palate is missing teeth which means my tongue didn't use to fit up there so well.
If you decide to try it just be very careful. Meltcel gave good advice in this thread too as far as being careful and not damaging yourself. Just keep everything in mind and go slowly. Try and feel things out. But no I never pushed forward on my teeth at all. The main push is going up into the palate with the back and middle of the tongue. And as your maxilla moves forward you can get more and more of your tongue up onto the palate.
Remember it's experimental.
It could just be your posture but that bulge seems to happen to people who don't have enough forward growth for their tongue to be on the spot and the posterior third to be on the palate at the same time. It's almost like the tongue is getting pushed down into the throat because it has nowhere else to go.
You can try messing around with your posture until you find a way to get your tongue up without the bulge happening perhaps by lifting your hyoid or suctioning the posterior part of your tongue and then pushing up, or you can push your tongue forward and just focus on getting the posterior and middle part up against as much of the palate as you can until you gain more forward space. This is what I did and it worked. If you do this posture your maxilla might rotate downwards slightly temporarily but it will move forward as well.
Experiment and see what you can make happen. Use my advice to figure out what to do on your own because your situation might be different than my assumption. Having the bulge there is definitely a sign that some changes need to be made though. In an ideal scenario the tongue would never come near the teeth, but everyone's case is different and sometimes you have to break the rules and come up with your own temporary postures in order to make progress.
That sounds like it would cause bimax. In fact bimax is caused by the tongue thrusting on the teeth. It may make your profile look good in the short term but I don't know why anyone should risk bimax just to make their neck look tighter. Where did you get this idea to break the rules? Are you a professional guiding people on their journey? Why would you recommend a posture without knowing the specific situation? I find this irresponsible.
OP, suck it up. You can fraud a good posture but you may make more damage due to you being self conscious about one problem. If you put your tongue against your teeth then you will start complaining about your lips having a monkey effect. Why cause another problem to falsely alleviate one?
The reason your profile looks tje way it does is because your jaw is too far back. But be patient and aim for the desired effects instead of just inventing your own posture. Are you being guided by a professional? If not I suggest seek that instead of people on a message board . People here largely are just theorizing based on their own situations but yours is unique so take everything here with a grain of salt.
You bring up some good points.
The goal of the technique is to make room for the posterior part of the tongue to fit up against the palate. In order to do this the front of the tongue goes forward past the spot or sometimes even down, but it never ever pushes outwards against the teeth. It will not cause bimax whatsoever. The goal isn't to push the teeth forward, it's to be able to push the posterior and middle part of the tongue upwards against the palate. Depending on how much CFD a person has keeping a 'correct' posture will not allow for any forward growth. If a person has very severe CFD then the 'spot' might be vertically right above the middle of the tongue which means that pushing on it is basically pushing straight upwards with no forward force at all.
The technique is a very temporary one that a person uses just until they gain enough forward movement to be able to go back to a normal posture where the tip can fit onto the palate again either on the spot or just behind the front teeth. But yes, it's experimental and everyone has to figure out if it's good for them or not on their own. I said as much in my last post.
And I didn't come up with this idea. I read about it and decided to try it, and it worked for me. I used to get a huge bulge when mewing properly, then I did this for a few months and now I can fit the tip of my tongue perfectly on the spot with no issues and no bulge while the posterior part of my tongue is also firmly against my palate. It worked for me but it may have rotated my maxilla downwards slightly at first which I warned about too.
Here's the post I read (right click -> view image for full size):
Everyone should decide for themselves what to do, and my advice is that if you have any doubts AT ALL, that you should stay away from experimental stuff.
As for being a professional or not, I can't even tell you how many professionals I went to that gave me the complete opposite advice of what I should have been doing. And I remember reading that you said you had a bad experience with an orthodontist as well, so I'm not sure that we should worry about who is a professional or not. The only person whose advice I would trust right now is Mike Mew and yes I have asked this question to him and we will see if he chooses to answer it in his next Q&A video. It has also been asked to Sarah Hornsby as well.
Suctioning the tongue to behind the alveolar ridge (as talked about on this page http://queenofdentalhygiene.net/2015/09/the-mighty-tongue/) would cause the intermolar width to increase and as a result more room is created over ttime to fit the tongue to be parallel to the upper teeth.
Essentially the guy who wrote "don't fold the tongue" ends up telling ppeople to in fact fold their tongue by having the tip of the tongue come down to the lower jaw that way. That is tongue folding.
My issue with that is it may cause separation and space being created between teeth in the mandible.
By suctioning the tongue to behind the rugae and to the "high" vaulted palate , pressure is applied laterally which over time gives the tongue the space it needs to reach the incisive papilla . It is also a gentle force and doesn't require any awkward effort to keep the tongue folding down (which he advised against LOL)
This method requires much less thinking and still accomplishes widening the ppalate. The forces are gentle and constant and the tongue stays in place without having to force it there yourself which is very unnatural and may not be as effective due to the forces being too strong, and bone resists forces like those.
This site even had this info on the tongue posture articles. Sometimes lateral force needs to be applied before upward force can begin
Posted by: EddieMoney
Suctioning the tongue to behind the alveolar ridge (as talked about on this page http://queenofdentalhygiene.net/2015/09/the-mighty-tongue/) would cause the intermolar width to increase and as a result more room is created over ttime to fit the tongue to be parallel to the upper teeth.
Essentially the guy who wrote "don't fold the tongue" ends up telling ppeople to in fact fold their tongue by having the tip of the tongue come down to the lower jaw that way. That is tongue folding.
My issue with that is it may cause separation and space being created between teeth in the mandible.
By suctioning the tongue to behind the rugae and to the "high" vaulted palate , pressure is applied laterally which over time gives the tongue the space it needs to reach the incisive papilla . It is also a gentle force and doesn't require any awkward effort to keep the tongue folding down (which he advised against LOL)
This method requires much less thinking and still accomplishes widening the ppalate. The forces are gentle and constant and the tongue stays in place without having to force it there yourself which is very unnatural and may not be as effective due to the forces being too strong, and bone resists forces like those.
This site even had this info on the tongue posture articles. Sometimes lateral force needs to be applied before upward force can begin
I wish that advice and regular mewing posture worked for me because it would have made my life a lot easier. I honestly think that my CFD was so bad that regular mewing posture wasn't a possibility for me.
When I first discovered Mewing in late 2015 my main goals were to widen my palate and fix my underbite. The first thing I did without doing too much research was just placing my tongue on the roof of my mouth in the most comfortable way I could. This led to the tip of my tongue resting right behind my front teeth. I kept this posture going for about a year and while it helped my breathing and made my face look better, it didn't give me any forward growth at all or widening of the palate. I even messed around with facepulling during this time with no results.
Noticing the lack of forward growth or expansion and wanting better results made me do more research into proper tongue posture and that's when I learned about the spot. So for the next year I did my best to keep the tip of the tongue right on the spot just like everyone says to do, just like every site says to do, and it made my face worse. The whole time I had that bulge under my jaw but I thought it would go away. I didn't get any forward growth or palate widening either. I realize now that the issue was that my CFD was so bad that putting my tongue on the spot meant that I was basically pushing straight UP instead of being able to push forward and up like you are supposed to.
After noticing that things were actually getting worse while I was doing everything the 'right' way, I decided to search the internet for any possible answers and that's when I found the post I posted the photo of. I found that post in Dec 2017, so just a few months ago. I had nothing to lose so I gave it a shot and now just a few months later my underbite is 90% resolved, my palate is slightly wider (barely though, from 31.5mm to 31.8mm, still wish I could get more), and for the first time ever I can put the tip of my tongue on the spot comfortably and mew properly. In fact now putting the tip of my tongue behind the teeth or pushing the tongue forward like that photo says is uncomfortable to me. Right now mewing properly is what's the most comfortable for me. But you have to understand that back when my CFD was worse, pushing the tongue forward was actually the MORE COMFORTABLE posture.
Everyone's situation is different, I don't think there is ever one perfect posture for a person trying to solve CFD. Having the tip of the tongue on the spot is the ideal posture but if a person can't get to it naturally, it might just make things worse like it did for me. Maybe that has to do with the fact that my jaw is pretty well developed compared to my face like krollic mentioned. But yeah, I tried things the way everyone says you are supposed to do and it didn't work for me.
I saw in another thread you posted that a person with an overbite should mew behind the spot and slowly work their way towards it. I agree with that. So perhaps it's possible that if a person has an overbite, that they might have to mew behind the spot, and if a person has an underbite that they might have to push the tongue forward and mew ahead of the spot. Just a theory.
edit: changed underbite to overbite and vice versa, I got the two mixed up. Underbite = lower jaw is bigger
Posted by: EddieMoney
Suctioning the tongue to behind the alveolar ridge (as talked about on this page http://queenofdentalhygiene.net/2015/09/the-mighty-tongue/) would cause the intermolar width to increase and as a result more room is created over ttime to fit the tongue to be parallel to the upper teeth.
Essentially the guy who wrote "don't fold the tongue" ends up telling ppeople to in fact fold their tongue by having the tip of the tongue come down to the lower jaw that way. That is tongue folding.
My issue with that is it may cause separation and space being created between teeth in the mandible.
By suctioning the tongue to behind the rugae and to the "high" vaulted palate , pressure is applied laterally which over time gives the tongue the space it needs to reach the incisive papilla . It is also a gentle force and doesn't require any awkward effort to keep the tongue folding down (which he advised against LOL)
This method requires much less thinking and still accomplishes widening the ppalate. The forces are gentle and constant and the tongue stays in place without having to force it there yourself which is very unnatural and may not be as effective due to the forces being too strong, and bone resists forces like those.
This site even had this info on the tongue posture articles. Sometimes lateral force needs to be applied before upward force can begin
I wish that advice and regular mewing posture worked for me because it would have made my life a lot easier. I honestly think that my CFD was so bad that regular mewing posture wasn't a possibility for me.
When I first discovered Mewing in late 2015 my main goals were to widen my palate and fix my overbite. The first thing I did without doing too much research was just placing my tongue on the roof of my mouth in the most comfortable way I could. This led to the tip of my tongue resting right behind my front teeth. I kept this posture going for about a year and while it helped my breathing and made my face look better, it didn't give me any forward growth at all or widening of the palate. I even messed around with facepulling during this time with no results.
Noticing the lack of forward growth or expansion and wanting better results made me do more research into proper tongue posture and that's when I learned about the spot. So for the next year I did my best to keep the tip of the tongue right on the spot just like everyone says to do, just like every site says to do, and it made my face worse. The whole time I had that bulge under my jaw but I thought it would go away. I didn't get any forward growth or palate widening either. I realize now that the issue was that my CFD was so bad that putting my tongue on the spot meant that I was basically pushing straight UP instead of being able to push forward and up like you are supposed to.
After noticing that things were actually getting worse while I was doing everything the 'right' way, I decided to search the internet for any possible answers and that's when I found the post I posted the photo of. I found that post in Dec 2017, so just a few months ago. I had nothing to lose so I gave it a shot and now just a few months later my overbite is 90% resolved, my palate is slightly wider (barely though, from 31.5mm to 31.8mm, still wish I could get more), and for the first time ever I can put the tip of my tongue on the spot comfortably and mew properly. In fact now putting the tip of my tongue behind the teeth or pushing the tongue forward like that photo says is uncomfortable to me. Right now mewing properly is what's the most comfortable for me. But you have to understand that back when my CFD was worse, pushing the tongue forward was actually the MORE COMFORTABLE posture.
Everyone's situation is different, I don't think there is ever one perfect posture for a person trying to solve CFD. Having the tip of the tongue on the spot is the ideal posture but if a person can't get to it naturally, it might just make things worse like it did for me. Maybe that has to do with the fact that my jaw is pretty well developed compared to my face like krollic mentioned. But yeah, I tried things the way everyone says you are supposed to do and it didn't work for me.
I saw in another thread you posted that a person with an underbite should mew behind the spot and slowly work their way towards it. I agree with that. So perhaps it's possible that if a person has an underbite, that they might have to mew behind the spot, and if a person has an overbite that they might have to push the tongue forward and mew ahead of the spot. Just a theory.
My post was against trying to go behind the spot however. The "spot" is realistically impossible to reach for most people with a high vaulted narrow palate. But by sucking your tongue up to the roof of the mouth it would land somewhere behind the spot (like maybe even an inch) but it would keep the tongue in place unlike how so many people I read about try and force their tongue to the incisive papilla.
When I first started working on mewing I would suction the tongue to the soft palate and a bit of the hard palate as well. It widened the arch enough to eventually reach the incisive papilla.
This own website explains it here /community/common-tongue-posture-mewing-problems-and-solutions/
If you do not have enough forward growth, you will have to consciously focus on the tongue applying pressure all along the Mid-Palate Ridge, and especially towards the Front Ridges and Tip. This will develop your maxilla forwards and upwards over time, through both repositioning of the maxilla as well as growth at the sutures within the craniofacial complex. If you lack transverse (side to side) growth, you will need to fold your tongue to keep it resting along the Alveolar Ridge and Mid-Palate Ridge which will result in growth in the width of your maxilla as well as forward movement.
Posted by: EddieMoney
My post was against trying to go behind the spot however. The "spot" is realistically impossible to reach for most people with a high vaulted narrow palate. But by sucking your tongue up to the roof of the mouth it would land somewhere behind the spot (like maybe even an inch) but it would keep the tongue in place unlike how so many people I read about try and force their tongue to the incisive papilla.
When I first started working on mewing I would suction the tongue to the soft palate and a bit of the hard palate as well. It widened the arch enough to eventually reach the incisive papilla.
This own website explains it here /community/common-tongue-posture-mewing-problems-and-solutions/
When you completely relax your tongue where does it end up? Because if I completely relax my tongue all the way, it actually goes past my front teeth by a good amount and almost even comes out of my mouth. If I completely relax my tongue and then suction it up to my palate the tip of my tongue actually ends up touching my bottom teeth.
I really think it comes down to different anatomies needing different solutions. Unless you tell me that your tongue behaves like mine at which point I'll rethink my theory. But for now I am pretty convinced.
Posted by: EddieMoney
My post was against trying to go behind the spot however. The "spot" is realistically impossible to reach for most people with a high vaulted narrow palate. But by sucking your tongue up to the roof of the mouth it would land somewhere behind the spot (like maybe even an inch) but it would keep the tongue in place unlike how so many people I read about try and force their tongue to the incisive papilla.
When I first started working on mewing I would suction the tongue to the soft palate and a bit of the hard palate as well. It widened the arch enough to eventually reach the incisive papilla.
This own website explains it here /community/common-tongue-posture-mewing-problems-and-solutions/
When you completely relax your tongue where does it end up? Because if I completely relax my tongue all the way, it actually goes past my front teeth by a good amount and almost even comes out of my mouth. If I completely relax my tongue and then suction it up to my palate the tip of my tongue actually ends up touching my bottom teeth.
I really think it comes down to different anatomies needing different solutions. Unless you tell me that your tongue behaves like mine at which point I'll rethink my theory. But for now I am pretty convinced.
Why do you need to fully relax your tongue and let it hang out of your mouth before you suction it? My tongue does the exact same thing as yours when I let it hang all the way out. But my starting position is the tongue resting on the mandible before I suction it.
I didn't mean to imply that I was letting my tongue hang out. Let me reword things because I was vague in my last post.
Ok; when my teeth are closed together and I let my tongue rest on the mandible like you mentioned, and I exert absolutely no effort at all and everything is completely relaxed, the tip of my tongue actually has to fold up against the backs of my bottom teeth in order to fit into my mouth. This is by default, I'm not pushing or hanging or doing anything. Is that what you experience? Also do you have all of your teeth (disregarding wisdoms) and what is your intermolar width?
Anyways, if I suction up from that position the tip of my tongue pretty much wants to stay down near my bottom teeth. If I want to put my tongue on the spot or behind it I have to physically move my tongue backwards first. Thanks to the extra space I recently gained putting the tip on the spot from here isn't a huge deal anymore like it used to be though.
The reason I'm asking so many questions is because I want more proof and evidence that your idea is right and that mine is wrong. Your idea to me is that everyone should aim for the ideal tongue posture (or as near it as they can at first) and my idea is that different anatomies will require different tongue postures so much so that having the tip down might be beneficial to some people.
Remember that I 90% solved my underbite through this method so I'm pretty committed to it. The results speak for themselves, and I spent 2 years mewing in the 'ideal' way with no forward movement to speak of.
I didn't mean to imply that I was letting my tongue hang out. Let me reword things because I was vague in my last post.
Ok; when my teeth are closed together and I let my tongue rest on the mandible like you mentioned, and I exert absolutely no effort at all and everything is completely relaxed, the tip of my tongue actually has to fold up against the backs of my bottom teeth in order to fit into my mouth. This is by default, I'm not pushing or hanging or doing anything. Is that what you experience? Also do you have all of your teeth (disregarding wisdoms) and what is your intermolar width?
Anyways, if I suction up from that position the tip of my tongue pretty much wants to stay down near my bottom teeth. If I want to put my tongue on the spot or behind it I have to physically move my tongue backwards first. Thanks to the extra space I recently gained putting the tip on the spot from here isn't a huge deal anymore like it used to be though.
The reason I'm asking so many questions is because I want more proof and evidence that your idea is right and that mine is wrong. Your idea to me is that everyone should aim for the ideal tongue posture (or as near it as they can at first) and my idea is that different anatomies will require different tongue postures so much so that having the tip down might be beneficial to some people.
Remember that I 90% solved my underbite through this method so I'm pretty committed to it. The results speak for themselves, and I spent 2 years mewing in the 'ideal' way with no forward movement to speak of.
I would need to see an illustration of how you rest your tongue then. I don't tthink I am getting it.
At any rate my intermolar (first molars) is 42mm. When I get back my old Hawley retainer I will see how much the width has shifted.
When you say overbite you mean your upper incisors didn't come in contact at all with your lower incisors, yes? I have a deep bite but that is entirely different. I have it since I don't have all my teeth (30 instead of 32) since I had bicuspid extractions on the mandible (first bicuspids). This makes my mandible sit back into my maxilla more than average since the arch was narrowed.
Posted by: EddieMoney
I would need to see an illustration of how you rest your tongue then. I don't tthink I am getting it.
At any rate my intermolar (first molars) is 42mm. When I get back my old Hawley retainer I will see how much the width has shifted.
When you say overbite you mean your upper incisors didn't come in contact at all with your lower incisors, yes? I have a deep bite but that is entirely different. I have it since I don't have all my teeth (30 instead of 32) since I had bicuspid extractions on the mandible (first bicuspids). This makes my mandible sit back into my maxilla more than average since the arch was narrowed.
I actually got mixed up on the meaning of overbite and underbite. I got them backwards. So I had to go back and edit all my posts in this thread. What I meant to say is that I had and underbite that has been majorly improved through mewing.
My bottom teeth never actually came in front of my upper teeth like that in a normal situation, but if I relaxed my jaw completely and tried to bite down, my incisors would hit tip to tip. But now if I do the same thing the bottom teeth come in behind the upper ones. On top of that for the first time in years it feels like my jaw/teeth actually 'fit together'. Huge source of stress and discomfort is getting resolved. This all happened after I experimented with the crazy tongue posture. I'm not sure if it is because the posture itself was so effective or just because it was the only way I could mew properly due to how much CFD I have/had. There might be something about an underbite that makes it hard to mew properly because the tongue is connected to the lower jaw and if the lower jaw is naturally more forward than the upper one, it might be hard to get the tongue onto the spot and push forward.
Now about your case, if your lower jaw sits further back than it is supposed to, I think that would explain why your preferred starting posture was to mew somewhere behind the spot at first. In your situation that would be the best starting point, and then over time as you gained expansion and your lower and upper jaws came more into harmony with one another, you would be able to mew more properly. So it seems to me like we were both right for our own situations, but that I was also right to say that it all depends on the anatomy. Every case is unique.
With respect to my tongue posture here's a picture of what it DOESN'T do:
You see how the tongue here fits nicely into the bottom teeth at rest? Mine can't do that, it hits against the front teeth and has to fold a bit. This actually gives me hope that my tongue will be able to create lots of forward growth as my mewing technique gets better and better.
In my myofunctional therapy sessions, I have learned that I have woefully neglected my tongue strength, as well as practicing proper placement. But I didn't realize how much until this afternoon.
In the few days that I've been practicing the 2nd phase of exercises and placement my therapist has coached me on, I'm seeing some big differences, as well as feeling new sensations, and sensations that are coming back that I had been confused on why they had disappeared.
We talk about folding of the tongue and suction, which is inevitable when the palate is too narrow -- but how and what parts of the tongue are essential.
My palate is so narrow that I need to cram my tongue up to the roof. Since I've strengthened my tongue I'm able to -- with muscle--narrow the middle and anterior parts of the tongue, rather than suction. The posterior third of my tongue is still weak, though I've been able to lift it for months now -- I never understood the feeling I needed to strive for. At this state, I NEED to fold/suction the posterior third up to the palate to make it fit where it needs to go, then release the suction and use the muscle strength to hold. I'm sure this will change as time goes on.
Since I've been doing that, my tongue tires easily, I need to reset every thirty seconds or so -- but my bite has moved even more forward, my cheeks are aching, and the area under my chin has never been more taut. Now, when I hard mew, I don't even get the bulge, but I'm not able to sustain it very long.
I wish I could describe the exercises and what to look for -- but it took two Skype sessions with Sarah Hornsby, and then several days of practice on my own for things to click. I've read so many posts before that I now see in a different light.
I now feel solid in my belief that the bulge has everything to do with weak tongue and improper tongue placement.
I too, used to overrate jaw strength and neglect the tongue when the latter is probably more important. I have a pretty good exercise routine for it now with gum, basically doing a lot of the stuff Mew talks about in his videos i.e the tongue smash, roll etc. Very shortly after starting tongue workouts I noticed an insane difference in my resting oral posture. Much more easy to maintain and I would wake up with tongue-on-palate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNocCJNicrc&t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74WnUB9Y63w
I now feel solid in my belief that the bulge has everything to do with weak tongue and improper tongue placement.
@krollic - Yes! I agree, but I think it's not just strength of tongue -- but also dexterity, which are part of the exercises I'm doing, and may be your results as well just using different methods. Being able to isolate and shift different parts of your tongue to gain the 2nd image in the diagram is key -- it's not just brute force. The left side of my tongue is weaker than my right AND has less room, so I need to be able to do different things with it, while also making sure my right is balancing everything out.
I have a strong enough tongue in some ways, but had very little control. In that way it was weak. I've been keeping the tongue on the roof of my mouth while sleeping for months now, but I'm shocked at how much I'm struggling today with this new posture.
Part of me is really excited, and part of me is really disappointed. I've been mewing since August 2017, but I feel like I've had to reset the clock a few times. I didn't start working on my body posture until October 2017, I finally thought I got the hang of my posterior third around January 2018. I began scoliosis work March/April 2018.
I hope to finally see some expansion now. But at least it's a small hurdle.
When I have more time, I'll try to draw and describe what's going on with my own situation.
EDIT: Also to add, I have not seen any significant or sustainable expansion, but have seen the bulge diminish.
I still get said bulge. Effects of lower extractions I suppose
Skin not being taut just means two things:
1.Extreme weight gain/loss stretched skin and you lost it and it didn't become tight again;
2.Skin/organs grew to a point, but soft/hard tissue underneath didn't -- so it isn't taut because of the facial structure not adequately supporting and/or pushing the skin out.
Of course downward growth/melted face/long face syndrome can make you look melted and lacking in looks, but that's because of the bone support being horrible. Bad skin itself doesn't have any impact on skin tightness either -- I've seen it myself. A person can have super clear skin and have loose skin/no good facial bone structure -- and someone can have horrible acne, marks, etc. and have tight, taut skin with good bones.
It all comes down to bones and muscle -- but probably more so bone structure. You know you're making progress if you're seeing any "tautness" increasing in, say, cheekbones or jaw or whatever -- that means the bones are actually better pushing the skin out and you're making progress.
The "beauty" of bone structure is just normal bones pushing the skin out/tautness. It's something literally everyone should have to an extent, assuming everything is right with their skin, bones, muscle, etc. Everyone should have a normal developed face -- i.e., no recessed bones; melted look; extra skin; shit bone architecture/support making you look "boneless" in the face. And of course all of this just equals unattractive in general or less attractive at the least.
My bone support has always been subpar because I, for example, spent countless hours as a kid: hunched over a lot and sat crookedly 8+ hours a day for years; had no oral/body posture at all; ate junk food and was overweight/obese; did not exercise really; had a purely soft food diet and ate mush during more early/formative years with little chewing; etc. and etc. (you probably get the point). Despite this I still didn't fall too far back, but correcting years of disaster is hard without surgery in short time periods.
** The face pulling "bag method" -- /community/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **
** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- /community/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **
Have you guys read anything about the frenulum with regards to lower jaw position? Could it be that a shorter frenulum helps the lower jaw stay more "upwards"?
I want to stretch my frenulum to get my tongue to the back of my throat to do a yoga breathing technique but I will stop that for now until I know the relationship between the frenulum and jaw position. I don't want the motherfucker to drop lol.
@keengo -- I think this is somewhat of a different a situation than what you're describing. Yes, absolutely, if my maxilla and mandible were even 4 mm more forward, the skin at my jaw and under chin would look taut without effort, and all of this talk about the tongue might be a moot point. BUT:
The manipulation of the tongue has created changes in my jawline. I have seen a change in this area in at least 1 month for the better and I've actually gained 5 lb and seen no expansion. And yet I have less of a double chin look than I did three months ago.
Using proper posture and using my tongue correctly has not only brought my mandible forward by about 1 mm just with the way activating these muscles naturally places my jaw, but the tongue I guess kind of sucks up ,which draws the connecting muscles up, and the skin looks taut.
So yes, you're right, but the bulge we've been discussing I believe is regarding muscle use.
@phrae - The frenulum has an essential impact on how your tongue can move your jaw, and how much strength it can exert to bring about change. If you have a tongue tie, it will be very difficult to see results with oral posture. The shorter the frenulum, the less range of motion you have with your tongue. I'm not sure about if a short frenulum would help keep the jaw forward, but it hinders being able to lift the anterior of the tongue to the proper place to promote healthy growth.
This next point is somewhat debated -- Frenulum stretches can help with very mild tongue-tie. But if tongue-tie is severe enough, a frenectomy might be the only solution.
My advice would be, yes to stretch the frenulum. You need a flexible and freely moving tongue first and foremost. How forward your jaw is is only one aspect of the harmony of the skull, and I'd say if you're able to strengthen your tongue, you'd be able to have an even deeper impact on your jaw.
EDIT: And the more flexible your frenulum is, the farther forward you can keep your jaw while the farther back your can take your tongue.
I doubt my bulge will ever go away unless I get lower arch expansion since having two premolars removed. Vin Diesel jaw it is for me I guess
Either that or my maxilla has to move significantly more. I am an adult male and my mew indicator line is already 44mm. It is already within normal range. Man orthodontics screwed me over . My mandible is the issue unfortunately
@Sclera I don't have a tongue tie. I am talking about beyond the normal range of motion. You can keep stretching your Frenulum until your tongue can go past the uvula and block the air with just the tongue.
That is folding the tongue and having the tip go there, yep sounds creepy.
@krollic So what has fixed the bulging? You mentioned jaw strength underestimation but haven't mentioned how the bulging was fixed. Was just a temporary issue that got resolves as the palate expanded?
I would guess that mean the posterior 3rd drops when you mew. try to swallow wiht a cheesy smile and see if the extra skin goes away
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