Tried to get the same angle
This change in the cheekbone region was the biggest improvement that I have personally observed from mewing thus far, although the difference isn't as extreme as in the case of Ead.
24 years old
It certainly is a incredible transformation. He will probably look fabulous when he has fixed his bite.
He grew cheekbones essentially. His brow looks more furrowed. His mouth widened and his nasolabial angle visibly shortened while his philtrum seemed to get longer? Or is that just an optical effect? Did his nose rise up? It seems his nose went up a bit. His nose went from long to medium sized it seems.
He had a Middle Eastern looking nose (long and thin with little width at the bottom) to more Northern European looking (wide at the base and narrow at the bridge). His nostrils look more flared. His nose looks visibly shorter but I doubt the length changed. I bet it looks shorter simply from being more wide at the base. This is probably what makes his philtrum look longer. Like I said he looks like he ethnic shifted a bit lol
Overall his face got more masculine looking. Higher fwhr, shorter midface as his eyes seem further apart, and his cheekbones grew laterally in a more high T appearance.
Aesthetically, I think the result looks a bit strange, especially around the mouth. Hopefully, it will get better when the teeth are evened out and the lower jaw is expanded.
The cheekbone improvement with MSE is insane. I bet MSE also makes mewing much easier and assists in breathing. Only problem with MSE is that it costs a lot of money, is a surgical procedure, not many MSE surgeons around, and after expansion you have to make sure that the mandible is well occluded with the maxilla which it likely wont be after MSE so you would have to expand the mandible too.
Aesthetically, I think the result looks a bit strange, especially around the mouth. Hopefully, it will get better when the teeth are evened out and the lower jaw is expanded.
That is more likely due to his resting musculature needing to adjust to the new position of the bones. As his lip seal improves his mouth won't look as much stretched out and like the skin is loose the way it does in the second pic.
On his blog, he has high quality before and after pictures. If you look closely at his pictures, you will see that as a result of his 10mm of expansion, he has:
Increased IP (interpupillary distance)
Pronounced cheekbones (zygos)
Widening of the nasal alars, making his nostrils look bigger and a widened nose
This expansion amount is revolutionary -you simply cannot achieve with mewing alone. This is probably the most amount of expansion that anyone ever successfully achieved through orthodontics. And Ronald is a lucky man to have met with a bold and brave orthodontist, Dr. Zubad Newaz. I can imagine how much this physician is charging Ronald, but it's worth it.
This physician is essentially planning on giving Ronald a bone to bone increase in transverse dimensions on both the maxilla and mandible. He installed an MSE type-2 appliance that granted Ronald over 10 mm of transverse expansion. That is more than enough to produce noticeable changes in the craniofacial structure, without surgery. But the mandible? How is he going to expand the mandible to match his now expanded upper arch to establish a harmonious occlusal plane? He's going to do a procedure called SFOT, following his expansion with MSE. The other option was MSDO, where they surgically expand the lower jaw by materializing a suture at the symphysis of the mandible. But Ronald is more of a candidate for SFOT, due to his substantial bone loss he experienced from meme treatment (AGGA). SFOT will deposit new bone for Ronald.
Name one orthodontist that would do all of this for you. Even though my orthodontist is knowledgeable about airway health and orthodontics, never would he be brazen and explorative to pursue options for expanding the mandible for true skeletal changes. This is all groundbreaking and it's truly a shame it's not mainstream news.
People with millions and billions pay for beauty by injections and plastic surgery. You never hear of a celebrity that pursues this orthodontically holistic route to achieve what Ronald's doing. This is remarkable. It's one thing to correct your occlusal plane and straighten teeth, but it's another behemoth to fix your cranial structure almost to where you'll land yourself at where you would have been had you been exercising proper tongue and back posture during those critical formative years of development.
I agree those are some substantial changes to his cranium, but are you sure that his interpupillary distance increased? I find this hard to determine from his frontal before/afters.
Might look into MSE now. This is probably THE best thing I've seen yet.
Hi guys, thanks for the support. One thing I would add is that my mandible has swung all the way to the right side in order to preserve one good side of occlusion following my aggressive MSE expansion. I believe this is the cause of the unsightly slope coming down from the expanded cheek bone into the mandible in the photo above.
I'm hoping that once I'm through with Invisalign expansion and reestablish correct, centered occlusion, that my upper and lower face won't look so assymmetric. Functionally, the result is extraordinary but I am crossing my fingers that SFOT and Invisalign expansion of the mandible will round out some of the aesthetic rough edges of my aggressive MSE expansion.
Now that you mention it in the after photo your jaw does look swung to the right a bit. I wonder if you know your starting IMW and your IMW now, if I had to guess you were 35-40 mm before and now your around high 40s.
Big time. I chew almost exclusively on the right side and the muscle memory carries over into resting and speech. Really looking forward to resolving this orthodontically (SFOT and Invisalign expansion of the lower teeth).
It's definitely the best option in your case, you seem to be really lacking in alveolar bone and you have a brodie bite, you'll be killing 2 birds with one stone. In your before occlusion pic it seems your jaw was already swung to the right a bit, rapid expansion exacerbated this I suspect. Your left side actually initially started out with normal occlusion while the right side your upper arch is leaning too much lingually. Rapid expansion probably immediately fixed your right side while your left side expanded a bit too far out to meet properly so you started chewing on your right side. With that said, it appears you were predisposed to this scenario.
Wish you the best on the rest of your treatment. I am sure you're in good hands. How is your ability to breathe through your nose? Has the expansion given you a noticeable difference?
You have to look closely and zip back to back on those before/after photos. It's very subtle but it's there.
Honestly, the functional results of MSE when it comes to breathing and Mewing (correct tongue posture) are so great that I would be willing to sacrifice aesthetics in order to achieve them. The fact that MSE produces aesthetic improvement (mid face expansion, bigger smile) is to me just a bonus.
I haven't had a stuffy nose since I started treatment. It is now deep winter here in Massachusetts and I wake up with a wide open nose and very wet mouth every single morning. That is unheard for me, especially during the winter.
Tried to get the same angle
I think some of the difference in the ogee curve between these pictures is because he appears to have his teeth together in the image on the left and parted in the image on the right.
Now that you mention it in the after photo your jaw does look swung to the right a bit. I wonder if you know your starting IMW and your IMW now, if I had to guess you were 35-40 mm before and now your around high 40s.
By the way, my intermolar width increased 1cm, from 36mm to 46mm. I turned the MSE 84 times. At 0.13mm per turn, it should have increased ~11.2mm. However Dr. Newaz says that the appliance may have absorbed some of those turns as bending of the appliance itself.
In my opinion this 1cm increase in intermolar width is worth all 4 years of the trouble i went through trying different appliances. It's life changing. Although I don't feel comfortable encouraging others to do it until I finish treatment without any unexpected side effects. We all know what happened with AGGA, whose dark side I did not discover until very late in the treatment.
$10-15K for MSE, cortical puncture, braces/clear aligners, etc.
Tack on another $6-10K for SFOT or maybe MSDO if you want to be aggressive with MSE expansion. As Dr. Mario said above, good luck finding an orthodontist to go through this with you. I don't think I know anyone in the world who would except for Dr. Newaz. If they are out there, let them make themselves known.
Do you think your intermolar width of 46mm is your genetic limit? As mew said the IMW was high 40s to low 50s in cavemen.
You're right about that, it makes his cheekbones appear more prominent, if you cover up the lower third and just focus on the cheekbones it's still a significant change, from flat to protruding. You can see it in Ronald's videos as well whenever he turns his head slightly to the side.
He probably still has 5 mm of expansion left give or take if not more, prehistoric man is in the 50s, you can probably get a good idea of your genetic limit from the size of your tongue as your IMW can't be wider than the tongue. I'm not sure if there's a reliable way to measure, I've measured my own tongue using a see-through ruler and pressing it against the back of the tongue (the part of the tongue in line with the molars) to flatten it a bit, my tongue comes out about 53-55 mm wide.
I think he still has room for expansion and now with so much more room for the tongue he can expand further.
https://youtu.be/26KBKhaieSE?t=43
If this video is anything to go by our IMW should be in the low 50s (50-55 mm). The tongue is quite flexible and can widen, narrow itself, elongate, etc. That's why having the tongue on the roof of your mouth doesn't cut it, your tongue will mold itself onto your palate. This will prevent relapse/narrowing but it won't expand the palate. Basically what I think is that if Ronald keeps his lips sealed and tongue resting on the roof of the mouth he won't relapse but he won't expand further either. If he makes an effort to "balloon" the tongue he will keep expanding. Not sure if I'm making sense but basically it's a difference of conforming the tongue to the palate vs. conforming the palate to the tongue.
My IMW is 33mm and I am 17.9 years old. Can balloon mewing give me 20mm of expansion in 5 years or is that a fantasy?
This is my appliance, but in another post...I've mentioned that I've been met with resistance. Not sure if my orthodontist is correct in where I've reached the expander's limit, but I ordered more keys. Everytime I try to turn using the key, it bends it.
Mine is a modified MARPE/MSE-type 1 expander appliance using the pin-type screw. I believe Ronald's appliance is the MSE-type 2 expander with activations made using the wrench (preferred).
For reference, if you swallow correctly and you're observant you'll notice the tongue naturally raises and flattens itself against the palate, repeat this motion and get a feel for it. I think expansion is the number one goal for mewing, not pushing up. The tongue (posterior third) raises itself to meet the palate, but I believe there should be little to no upwards pressure, the posterior third raising itself to meet the palate is important to trying to flatten/expand the tongue against the palate but I don't think there's a need to "push up" with the tongue.
As for your question, honestly 5 years is a long time, the rate of sutural bone growth is 1 mm/week if remember correctly (at least for the mid palatal suture). The biggest hurdle is not physical, the skull remodels and grows new bone well into adulthood, it's mental. Mewing 24/7 even when your sleeping will definitely cause significant change, however that's quite difficult. For the record Jamo managed to get a diastema from mewing so the tongue is definitely sufficient enough for expansion.
I recently changed my mewing technique from pushing up on the maxilla to now pushing side ways against the molars. Will this cause sutural growth or teeth tipping or even both?
The forces of the tongue are distributed throughout the palate and teeth so I don't think teeth tipping will occur.
A narrow palate is vaulted like so, therefore the forces are distributed not just through the teeth but the palate as well (except for the front teeth, I'd avoid pushing directly on the front teeth). That's why it's important to raise the posterior third so you can better get the tongue flat against the palate and expand outwards.
you won't be able to get that much expansion.
Tribes who have had good posture all their lives can sometimes achieve that but that's proper posture from day 1 + chewing wild hard foods and other stuff we don't yet know that affects the face.
But Ronald is more of a candidate for SFOT, due to his substantial bone loss he experienced from meme treatment (AGGA). SFOT will deposit new bone for Ronald.
This quote above caught my interest - are you referring to mandibular/alveolar bone that he lost due to another treatment? Was his damage horizontal, or vertical? Because almost every doctor I've spoken to about trying to address some horizontal bone loss in by jaw due to OSA (which is now leading to gum recession and exposed roots) basically has said it's just not possible.
Ron
are you ok? We haven’t heard from you since before you went for SFOT. And now your site is down! I feel you are a close friend with all you’ve shared and want to know how you are. Is everything ok? Did Something bad happen?
please please let us know you are still around.
wow. I had no idea. Thanks for sharing.
Ronald! I hope u find some help! Right now with corona here it is bad time to need treatment. check out Marianna Evans in Philadelphia
I too wanted SFOT and the perio (in California) was saying they could only do so much. They wouldn’t take my case because I have too little bone. I thought that was what they are supposed to fix!
@ronaldead it's possible that just improving your oral posture might have improved your nasal breathing. When you focus on it, alongside correct tongue position, it will improve over time. The fact that you did MSE at the same time probably compounded the speed of improvement, but might not have actually been necessary.
https://reversedental.wordpress.com/how-i-stopped-mouthbreathing-and-snoring-during-sleep/
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