First of all. I do not think Mike Mew's jaw is the pinnacle of attractiveness or aesthetics.
A lot of people, and myself, would agree that the top male models are a lot more aesthetically pleasing. I don't believe these people chew chios masthia gum every day for hours at a time.
These people usually usually have above average masseter development, and long, wide ramuses and jaws, with good forward growth. A lot of it also being from nutritional and hormonal development, along with good tongue and teeth posture and alignment.
Secondly. Mike Mew has very deep nasolabial folds, and I wonder if that's caused by muscular changes from his oral posturing, and if so, I'd say that that's an undesirable result.
Humans also evolved to have smaller masseters which allow larger cranial development, allowing more room for the brain to develop.
Nor should you. Mike is not claiming to be some kind of pinnacle of aesthetic beauty, but a dentist interested in helping people achieve good facial form and saving them from harmful orthodontic practices. Models are models because they represent archetypal human beauty. As you seem to realize, beauty is the sum of many factors. While ideal function allows ideal form to be expressed, that is not to say that everyone will be equally beautiful. Some people are unattractive. Others are attractive. Such is life.
You are criticising Mew's appearance, but you are also agreeing with his principles. To say that your post is criticism towards Orthotropics does not seem true. Mew is just the public face of Orthotropics. He is not an embodiment of the tropic premise (which is only another label for normal anatomic function).
I just don't want to develop NL folds sooner than I would've without trying to use my tongue to push my maxilla forward.
I don't disagree with the practice, that doesn't mean there isn't room for criticism, when supposedly Mike's face is the result of following Orthotropic principals.
The one thing I don't like is having too big of a masseter, I have yet to see one exceptionally beautiful person with the masseter appearance that Mike has. Mike isn't a bad looking guy by any means, he has good development obviously, forward maxilla and a square jaw, I just think his masseters are excessive.
Also, there is more to cranial facial development, a sharp jaw is caused by androgenic sensitivity in the bone of the gonion, as well as the adequate calcium deposits and caloric needs to grow the skeletal system, there are many nutritional and hormonal aspects to facial development, that it is inaccurate and wrong to say that oral posture is all there is to it. It is too reductionist.
You are of course free to do as you want. It is not unwise to fully weigh the potential positive and negative consequences of an action before making a choice. Yet if you ask me, being paranoid about a feature as minor and aesthetically ambiguous as nasolabial folds is comically obsessive.
it is inaccurate and wrong to say that oral posture is all there is to it. It is too reductionist.
No one is saying that.
it is inaccurate and wrong to say that oral posture is all there is to it. It is too reductionist.
No one is saying that.
I never see any genuinely handsome males that have NL folds, at least in my age range (20 yrs) and males with better genetics tend to age better, thus develop nasolabial folds at a later age.
Still, other factors aren't discussed nearly enough when it comes to epigenetic cranial-facial development, especially when you won't get as much bone growth without adequate nutrition for bones (think Weston Price). These are topics that are neglected.
And also just because you think it's obsessive to care about them doesn't mean that applies to everyone, everyone has different priorities. Say, if you're someone who plans to be a media presence, usually conventional beauty standards are held to you, and more directly compared with yourself.
2018 girls in my age care a lot about what is conventionally attractive, as it's an important factor when dating, so you can show off on social media that you're with someone attractive. And also moreso genetically fit people (more attractive) are more likely to be chosen as a mate by women, which in our species are the chooser sex (Briffault's Law)
I think you understood this a bit wrong, or you didn't see enough of Mike's videos, because in some of them he's actually saying in a way how it's all very complicated and that he is just happy they started to view the face as a whole, not just the teeth. The things they discovered about oral posture are most certainly a step forward in our understanding how to become better versions of ourselfs, and I'm not talking about appearance, I actually get a little bit mad when people go on about appearance so much, I am talking about feeling good, healthy and powerful inside your body. It was never about pumping chests on how orthotropics saved the day, it's simply a step forward, that you should apply on yourself as you feel is best for you, just like everything else.
it is inaccurate and wrong to say that oral posture is all there is to it. It is too reductionist.
No one is saying that.
I never see any genuinely handsome males that have NL folds, at least in my age range (20 yrs) and males with better genetics tend to age better, thus develop nasolabial folds at a later age.
Still, other factors aren't discussed nearly enough when it comes to epigenetic cranial-facial development, especially when you won't get as much bone growth without adequate nutrition for bones (think Weston Price). These are topics that are neglected.
And also just because you think it's obsessive to care about them doesn't mean that applies to everyone, everyone has different priorities. Say, if you're someone who plans to be a media presence, usually conventional beauty standards are held to you, and more directly compared with yourself.
2018 girls in my age care a lot about what is conventionally attractive, as it's an important factor when dating, so you can show off on social media that you're with someone attractive. And also moreso genetically fit people (more attractive) are more likely to be chosen as a mate by women, which in our species are the chooser sex (Briffault's Law)
Neglected and not discussed by WHOM? You use these vague accusations: "a lot of people agree", "x isn't discussed", "x is neglected" "saying x is too reductionist". These are useless statements if you are merely throwing them out there, unwilling to specify who in particular you are referring to. It is as if you are projecting your own impression of some generalized abstraction of a subjective perceptual judgement (= an x seems related to y, therefore all x must equal y) onto loosely defined groups of people (= this forum & Mew) in order to find a reason to disagree with them. Most users here are 100% open to discussing everything related to facial development, and I have gotten the impression that Mike is too. If you feel that some topic should be talked more about, go ahead and make a thread about it. On other hand, if you have a bone to pick with a specific individual, go talk to them. It is more productive than making sweeping accusations.
Worrying over nasolabial folds IS obsessive, no matter what your priorities are. I'm not saying it is a worry that can't be justified, only that it's a humorously insignificant concern within the vast majority of contexts. The increased physical and mental wellbeing brought by structural improvement of the skull is immensely superior to potential aesthetic drawbacks, and in reality, when moving from anatomical dysfunction to anatomical function, ANY kind of drawbacks hardly even exist.
Lookism-tier platitudes about women's preferences and genetic fitness is not something I'm interested in arguing about. It's too substanceless, too black and white and too rooted in emotionally colored value judgements.
I've read reports on various skin-related internet forums I frequent that certain muscular changes may worsen nasal labial folds, but whatever exercise, movement, practice etc you're doing... just simply stop and everything will return to normal soon enough. Try not to make too many changes at once so you can see the effect of every change, then modify your approach as need be.
Honestly, one of my initial motivations for beginning to Mew was the appearance of nasal labial folds at age 30. I thought they had a profoundly aging effect upon my face. But I eventually grew to see a bigger picture and have seen so many other improvements than just one area of my face. 5 years of mewing and my NL folds haven't worsened and are a bit better without use of any invasive procedures. And yes, I'm even in this reported awkward stage that some affectionately call the "duck face" stage. Even so, I feel better than when I started, and believe I look better as well.
As for some things you can try... I just do massages that seem to help. Compression-type therapies like Yamuna's work and Myofascial release are, in my opinion, good adjuncts to Mewing, may help with the NL area and can help relax and bring the body in to alignment.
And OP, while I can sympathize with your concerns RE: finding a mate, you might want to consider that your investment in to the so-called red pill theories could be deemed unattractive to some women.
edit: Oh wow, sorry for bumping an old thread, hopefully that wasn't too much of a faux-pas. I've been reading some of the older threads lately...
Remember this pain... and let it activate you.
1. Mike Mew does not have perfect development, posture, etc. He has never claimed he was a model.
2. Top male models you mean who regularly photoshop their photos and cherrypick to make themselves look better? There are certainly ones that don't but a lot do.
3. About deep nasolabial folds, Mike Mew is not the pinnacle of perfect oral posture and development, to judge this concept by using Mike Mew as a standard is disingenuous
4. What you're thinking of "smaller jaws" is very far from the actual truth. Our human ancestor still had to chew large amounts and this is evident in the wear of their teeth and size of their jaws.
He was pretty good looking when he was younger though, as if he'd been Mewing. Although I personally wouldn't worry about this anymore, about naso folds, because it varies mostly at an individual level it seems, and everyone gets them at some point, it's better to have them form over a wider palate and better formed oral bones at least.
If your biggest concern is NL folds and hypertrophied masseters you shouldn't worry. I am fairly certain that NL folds and chipmunk face develop from too much closed mouth chewing. I suspect that is where Mew got his from. Too much gum chewing with a closed mouth. Not chewing enough real foods that are crunchy that incorporate the tongue.
My story: I started to develop NL folds and puffy cheeks that completely vanished after I switched to OPEN MOUTH CHEWING and incorporating more real crunchy foods into my routine. It's revolutionary stuff. So don't worry. Your concerns are well founded but there is a way to alleviate them. Search this forum for 'open mouth chewing' and read.
Now as far as Mew's looks, I would say that compared to his father, and even compared to the majority of the population he has really good development which proves that his theories are legit. Which it seems you agree with. I think that your main concerns are just NL folds and chipmunk face yes? Hopefully my post solved that for you.
Now as for why Mew doesn't talk about the whole picture like nutrition and stuff, perhaps he doesn't know about it. He seems open minded though, perhaps he will come around to it in time; maybe if people shared results with him and said that nutrition/supplementation really helped.
@admin, we need a solution for questions that keep coming up on this forum especially as we grow.
@admin, we need a solution for questions that keep coming up on this forum especially as we grow.
We'll definitely discuss this when we grow further. A FAQ on the forum or more articles to answer beginner questions (which is the purpose of the articles) is possible. We can also merge threads if the discussion in a reposted topic becomes worthwhile.
The next things on the docket may be the addition of a nutrition board and the slotting in of a new moderator. It depends on board traffic / amount of posts / new threads - I really don't want to break up discussion until it becomes necessary.
The hot threads are what the users decide to respond to, and there's always going to be people who show up to ask questions that have already been answered. These things not only tend to resolve themselves, but actually offer insights when an old "settled" subject is dragged back into the spotlight with fresh eyes.
Yes I agree @admin it would maybe be nice to have sections like:
- Nutrtion
- Newbie Questions
- Before and Afters / Progress Photos
- Devices
- Oral techniques (...)
or something... just because I notice a lot of repeat questions because people may not search or keyword things properly :)
I think it makes more sense to hypertrophy masseters for a year and then stop. The muscle will reduce but the jaw bone will have become bigger due to more bone tissue in the connectivity point of jaw muscle and jaw bone. This is a legit way to grow more BONE. Same way you grow thicker bones when working out in the gym.
Worrying over nasolabial folds IS obsessive, no matter what your priorities are. I'm not saying it is a worry that can't be justified, only that it's a humorously insignificant concern within the vast majority of contexts. The increased physical and mental wellbeing brought by structural improvement of the skull is immensely superior to potential aesthetic drawbacks, and in reality, when moving from anatomical dysfunction to anatomical function, ANY kind of drawbacks hardly even exist.
Moving maxilla forward should REDUCE nasolabial folds not increase them. Mike has them from age, which is normal. Think about it logically. If the nose and midface region is sunked then there is more chance of folds developing unlike if that region is pulled out. Try it on a piece of fabric, pull it out...are there folds? Not really? Now push it in, suddenly you see folds.
30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.
We'll definitely discuss this when we grow further. A FAQ on the forum or more articles to answer beginner questions (which is the purpose of the articles) is possible. We can also merge threads if the discussion in a reposted topic becomes worthwhile.
The next things on the docket may be the addition of a nutrition board and the slotting in of a new moderator. It depends on board traffic / amount of posts / new threads - I really don't want to break up discussion until it becomes necessary.
The hot threads are what the users decide to respond to, and there's always going to be people who show up to ask questions that have already been answered. These things not only tend to resolve themselves, but actually offer insights when an old "settled" subject is dragged back into the spotlight with fresh eyes.
Yup that's pretty much my line of thinking as well. We shouldn't break up the forum while it's still so small, and going over old topics with fresh eyes can be really helpful to everyone.
But yes, I think a FAQ or Wiki of some sort would be beneficial too. Nothing major, just something that people can quickly glance over before posting so that there is a foundation for them to stand on. Perhaps we can also give them a recommendation to search before posting because in some cases bumping an old thread might be more valuable than creating a new one.
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