Alright, I keep seeing people talking about using suction in order to Mew on these forums, and I have no clue where that idea came from. I have always thought of Mewing as being something else. Anyways, I am open to all counterpoints to what I am about to say, but in my opinion Mewing is all about the PUSH.

Before I go on, let me say why my opinion might matter. With mewing alone I have fixed my sleep apnea, given myself hollow cheeks, unmelted one side of my face that used to really be out of balance, and fixed the canthal tilt on both of my eyes from negative to positive. I really think that I could only have made these changes if my Mewing technique was on point.

So let me say again that I think that Mewing is all about the PUSH. Pushing with your tongue is the only way to get upwards forces onto your facial bones. Suction pulls things downwards, it's the exact opposite of what you need to be doing. If you can only get your tongue up using suction it means that your muscles are too weak or that you are tongue-tied and that you are using suction to compensate. This will never give you the changes you need. You need to strengthen your muscles and be able to PUSH.

Now when you push, make sure that you don't overpower your jaw muscles because that just leads to more issues. Find a way to keep things in balance and make sure it feels good. It takes time to Mew properly as well. A long time. Years for some people. Just keep at it.

I see it like this: you can only suck as hard as you push, and you can't properly push unless you suck. This doesn't mean that you should have to push or suck hard, but that some of both is necessary for proper support. The act of pushing anchors anterior tongue to hard palate, allowing posterior tongue to form stable suction, and this suction is the main force that stretches the spine and expands the skull over time.

Posted by: Allixa

Alright, I keep seeing people talking about using suction in order to Mew on these forums, and I have no clue where that idea came from. I have always thought of Mewing as being something else. Anyways, I am open to all counterpoints to what I am about to say, but in my opinion Mewing is all about the PUSH.

Before I go on, let me say why my opinion might matter. With mewing alone I have fixed my sleep apnea, given myself hollow cheeks, unmelted one side of my face that used to really be out of balance, and fixed the canthal tilt on both of my eyes from negative to positive. I really think that I could only have made these changes if my Mewing technique was on point.

So let me say again that I think that Mewing is all about the PUSH. Pushing with your tongue is the only way to get upwards forces onto your facial bones. Suction pulls things downwards, it's the exact opposite of what you need to be doing. If you can only get your tongue up using suction it means that your muscles are too weak or that you are tongue-tied and that you are using suction to compensate. This will never give you the changes you need. You need to strengthen your muscles and be able to PUSH.

Now when you push, make sure that you don't overpower your jaw muscles because that just leads to more issues. Find a way to keep things in balance and make sure it feels good. It takes time to Mew properly as well. A long time. Years for some people. Just keep at it.

As far as I understand what is meant by suction in this context is not the kind that is formed between the tongue and the palate, but the tongue and the upper throat. The suction is complementary to pushing up and I view both as essential parts of Mewing. Pushing lifts the body, sucking stabilizes the effort by locking the skull and neck together. Anatomically, to me it feels like the sucking motion is linked to diaphragmatic inhaling ,and pushing to exhaling. In former the motion is about stabilization, in latter about generating force. Try it out to see if you agree.

I think both Mews have talked about this kind of suction, but the videos must be 1-2 years old by now so it's no wonder if that doesn't sound familiar.

Posted by: Progress

Posted by: Allixa

Alright, I keep seeing people talking about using suction in order to Mew on these forums, and I have no clue where that idea came from. I have always thought of Mewing as being something else. Anyways, I am open to all counterpoints to what I am about to say, but in my opinion Mewing is all about the PUSH.

Before I go on, let me say why my opinion might matter. With mewing alone I have fixed my sleep apnea, given myself hollow cheeks, unmelted one side of my face that used to really be out of balance, and fixed the canthal tilt on both of my eyes from negative to positive. I really think that I could only have made these changes if my Mewing technique was on point.

So let me say again that I think that Mewing is all about the PUSH. Pushing with your tongue is the only way to get upwards forces onto your facial bones. Suction pulls things downwards, it's the exact opposite of what you need to be doing. If you can only get your tongue up using suction it means that your muscles are too weak or that you are tongue-tied and that you are using suction to compensate. This will never give you the changes you need. You need to strengthen your muscles and be able to PUSH.

Now when you push, make sure that you don't overpower your jaw muscles because that just leads to more issues. Find a way to keep things in balance and make sure it feels good. It takes time to Mew properly as well. A long time. Years for some people. Just keep at it.

As far as I understand what is meant by suction in this context is not the kind that is formed between the tongue and the palate, but the tongue and the upper throat. The suction is complementary to pushing up and I view both as essential parts of Mewing. Pushing lifts the body, sucking stabilizes the effort by locking the skull and neck together. Anatomically, to me it feels like the sucking motion is linked to diaphragmatic inhaling ,and pushing to exhaling. In former the motion is about stabilization, in latter about generating force. Try it out to see if you agree.

I think both Mews have talked about this kind of suction, but the videos must be 1-2 years old by now so it's no wonder if that doesn't sound familiar.

I definitely am able feel something extra going on with the upper throat now that you mention it. I wouldn't call it suction though. I think the idea of 'throat posture' that you brought up earlier is a better description of what I am feeling. To me suction implies something going on between the tongue and the palate which is why the idea was so strange to me.

The throat posture feeling that I get when I mew just feels like deep posterior tongue push mewing. Nothing about suction comes into play at all for me. I do feel the weight shifting as I breathe in and out but it still doesn't feel like suction.

Can you describe more viscerally how exactly you mew?

Yeah, in any case, you seem to get the idea. It seems possible that both the posterior & anterior tongue can function asymmetrically independently from each other. For example, the tongue at palate could be in the habit of pushing to the right and the tongue at throat to the left. This results in a very multidimensional facial asymmetry and I feel like it could describe the asymmetrical qualities @apollo wrote about in his thread, along with my own

Well my goal of mewing is discovering how the body can be made to move as a single unit from head to toes. Some user mentioned the word tensegrity, and integrity of tension describes well the aspect of anatomy that I am trying to master. It's like a martial art without the martial and just the craft. When the body supports itself by leaning against its own forces, its whole musculature is active in an almost imperceptible way. The amount of energy that each individual muscle has to chip in will be low when the whole musculature is partaking in the effort as a single uit. You find yourself in a paradoxically effortless and prepared stance.

So in short, I seek to Mew in a way that enhances motoric ability. What this currently translates to in practice: I lock the tongue against the palate, the ramus and the spine by the combined effort of sucking and pushing. Then, on intuitive level, I try to find way to connect this structure all the way down to the feet during walking, reaching for something etc. In all movements, best level of support seems to be achieved by :

1. striving to keep weight evenly distributed across the soles (not just between the soles but individually too. A foot is like a rectangle, each corner of which is given the same amount of weight)

2. striving to keep the tongue in balance in relation to the palate and the spine.

In practice this means that the head will be always as close to the center of gravity, and the center of gravity as close to the midpoint between your feet, as possible. This creates the anatomical "axis", around which the rest of the body stabilizes itself. 

For me, asymmetrical activities like skateboarding and guitar playing in childhood caused both 1. and 2. go out of alignment, causing the rest of the body in between to create compensatory anatomical patterns.

Thanks for the replies. Thinking about it now, I think I've always pushed my tongue up, but put a bit of suction into it. Think I'm going to keep to doing that but keep to more of the pushing force.

I think I've got that used to mewing that I cant feel my tongue in my mouth, I can only feel my tip and a bit further behind it touching my palate, I also push up until it's a bit difficult to breathe. Are these the signs you know your tongue is on your palate?

Posted by: Allixa

Alright, I keep seeing people talking about using suction in order to Mew on these forums, and I have no clue where that idea came from.

It comes from doctors John and Mike Mew. In fact that is exactly what Dr. Mike told me when I shared with him how I found it challenging to engage the posterior third of the tongue. He advised using a a suction movement.

See the video below for an explanation on how to engage the tongue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTN5VDldq2U&index=91&list=PLvXdUmnqkbIzevkgacK_hpjJipLKCQm-r

@abdul-2,

I found the video you are talking about. The one called 'Suction Hold'. Hate to say it but I think Mew is wrong about this one. And his swallow technique isn't that great either. He says that he has to swallow a few times to get the whole bolus down which shows that he isn't using his tongue properly.

Anyways by watching the video I have realized that we can meet in the middle. I do use suction to engage the tongue up onto the palate, but as soon as it's up there I switch to pushing. And I have also realized the the main thing I use to get my whole tongue up onto the palate is a proper swallow. When I do a good swallow motion the entire tongue goes up hard against my palate and stays up there, and then I just push from there. If I feel like I want more of my tongue up there then I use a little suction, just for a brief second, then I continue pushing. I don't like the idea of suction + pushing being the proper technique that you have to do all day long.

@progress,

Increasing your proprioception and motoric ability is definitely a good choice. I think that being in tune with my body is what has allowed me to make the amount of change that I have so far. Have you looked into any form of activity to help with this? It's been a while for me but I swear that spending a few years doing indoor bouldering gave a huge boost to these abilities for me. I also did some weightlifting in my past but I don't feel that this helped as much.

I also saw another post of yours on this forum where you mentioned bag breathing for CO2. I was wondering if you picked up that idea from Peat by any chance?

Daily walks have high effort-results ratio as long as you are paying attention and using flat shoes. The motions involved in walking are so repetitious and numerous that new patterns of movement can be subconsciously learned in a matter of days.

I have similar experience with traditional weightlifting. Compound lifts tend to achieve anatomically pretty non-functional strength. They make you strong, but only in a very particular set of movements. They don't make you fit/nimble like Tarzan or Bruce Lee. A fit human operating at maximum postural potential is a powerful force in any environment.

Yeah I sympathize with Peat's ideas.

Posted by: Allixa

......but as soon as it's up there I switch to pushing.....

 

What is your inter-molar width?

When I started with a narrow palate I felt the need to keep pushing up hard but as my plate expanded with my current orthodontic treatment pushing has become less important. My guess is that people with sufficient sagital and transverse expansion and a proper hyoid bone position can posture their tongue with suction only as described in the video.

Posted by: Progress

Daily walks have high effort-results ratio as long as you are paying attention and using flat shoes. The motions involved in walking are so repetitious and numerous that new patterns of movement can be subconsciously learned in a matter of days......

I second that as I am relearning walking it takes allot of attention and engages muscles in unexpected ways. For example, I am able tuck in my lower abdominal muscles effortlessly as I engage my Glutes with correct walking.   

Posted by: abdul

What is your inter-molar width?

When I started with a narrow palate I felt the need to keep pushing up hard but as my plate expanded with my current orthodontic treatment pushing has become less important. My guess is that people with sufficient sagital and transverse expansion and a proper hyoid bone position can posture their tongue with suction only as described in the video.

31mm.

You might be on to something then. I definitely feel that pushing is important to me, and I have made great changes from it (but no expansion). I have a hard time picturing how suction could be better even if my palate was super wide. You're saying that with a wider palate pushing doesn't feel good anymore?

Posted by: Progress

Daily walks have high effort-results ratio as long as you are paying attention and using flat shoes. The motions involved in walking are so repetitious and numerous that new patterns of movement can be subconsciously learned in a matter of days.

I have similar experience with traditional weightlifting. Compound lifts tend to achieve anatomically pretty non-functional strength. They make you strong, but only in a very particular set of movements. They don't make you fit/nimble like Tarzan or Bruce Lee. A fit human operating at maximum postural potential is a powerful force in any environment.

Yeah I sympathize with Peat's ideas.

Yeah I have learned a lot from Peat. He doesn't get everything right but he hits on some very important things that no one else covers.

The walking is a good idea. I'll give that a shot in the future.. flat shoes of course.

If you remember, try not to step ankle first. It took me a long time to figure out, but when I did it made a lot click together. Ideally the front part of plantar should touch ground first in the beginning of every new step, with the center of the gravity not moving away from the heel of the back foot until it is ready to be shifted to the heel of the forward foot. With shoes, this becomes less straightforward. Someone once adviced to "walk the shoe, not the ground" and I think it makes sense. There's a difference between treating the shoe as an extension of foot vs an extension of ground. It's not enough that the shoe is firmly on the ground, you have to spread the weight evenly between the insole and the foot too.

Posted by: Allixa

Posted by: abdul

What is your inter-molar width?

When I started with a narrow palate I felt the need to keep pushing up hard but as my plate expanded with my current orthodontic treatment pushing has become less important. My guess is that people with sufficient sagital and transverse expansion and a proper hyoid bone position can posture their tongue with suction only as described in the video.

31mm.

You might be on to something then. I definitely feel that pushing is important to me, and I have made great changes from it (but no expansion). I have a hard time picturing how suction could be better even if my palate was super wide. You're saying that with a wider palate pushing doesn't feel good anymore?

Not required anymore to be precise. When there is sufficient space for the tongue to rest on the palate, and the hyoid bone and all the neck muscles are in order, the tongue doesn't have to do any extra effort, it just has to stick where it belongs with minimal effort: suction.

Both Dr. Mews allude to this somewhat when they refer to the act of posturing the tongue as a "gentle effort" that requires "constant reminder".  

Posted by: Progress

If you remember, try not to step ankle first. It took me a long time to figure out, but when I did it made a lot click together. Ideally the front part of plantar should touch ground first in the beginning of every new step, with the center of the gravity not moving away from the heel of the back foot until it is ready to be shifted to the heel of the forward foot. With shoes, this becomes less straightforward. Someone once adviced to "walk the shoe, not the ground" and I think it makes sense. There's a difference between treating the shoe as an extension of foot vs an extension of ground. It's not enough that the shoe is firmly on the ground, you have to spread the weight evenly between the insole and the foot too.

I am not clear on your description. Are you saying you land with you toes/ball of foot first with the forward leg?

If so, that sounds exactly opposite to what I learned where the heel is supposed to land first.

Here are two reference:
https://youtu.be/hapNhZNM0jQ
https://youtu.be/6ObNnCTV6MY

Yes, but not excessively. The motion is closer to stepping forward with an even foot than it is to stepping forward toes first. Toes are almost irrelevant to proper walking mechanics (although not for stability), so walking barefeet with raised toes can be illuminating. In any case, stepping heel first points towards a significant failure of the whole anatomical process. Imagine early humans walking in diverse natural environment. Over-extending knee by stepping down ankle first is an open invitation to injuries when walking on an uneven ground. Try both and see which one makes more sense to you.

To be blunt, I think the people behind the links you posted are clueless.

Ok, do you have a link or a reference I can use to follow the method you are describing?

The pnly notes about this are in my notepad, but if there is any logic to what I am talking about, there has to be something to be found about in on Google. In either case, I will gladly discuss any specific questions you bring up.

Also just watch toddlers walk and see how they move when barefoot - they are a great example of natural body movement! 

@progress,

thanks for the tip. I tried it out and it was good. It forces me to stand a little straighter when I walk and also to squeeze my core muscles a bit too, it almost feels like a bit of a workout. I can definitely feel benefits from it.

@abdul-2,

I see what you mean now. So then there is one last question, even if you can get your tongue up with minimal effort, wouldn't you get quicker and better results by using more force to push?

 

@abdul-2,

I see what you mean now. So then there is one last question, even if you can get your tongue up with minimal effort, wouldn't you get quicker and better results by using more force to push?

I am not sure, but Dr Mew always talks about using gentle forces to cause change overtime, otherwise the body will resist high forces.

I just remembered this thread when I read an article by Doctor John Mew titled:

0.4 The Tongue – What part does it play? 

It is hard to comprehend the full difference between the correct and incorrect action/posture of the tongue. The teeth are resistant to short-term force during biting or swallowing but they are very sensitive to light long-term force/posture, including the touch of the tongue. If you place a blob of resin on the lingual side of an unopposed molar it will move away from the light contact of the tongue because it is continuous while the strong push from the tongue during swallowing lasts barely a second and so has little influence.

https://orthotropics.com/__trashed-2/  

When you posture your tongue and then start pushing that is no longer a posture but a function. How long can you keep this function and is it good for the muscles involved, and do the teeth and bones react well to it are probably good question to ask Dr. Mike Mew in the next opportunity.

I do suction and then push. Intermolar is 42mm. 

If I go wider my mandible can come forward due to a deep bite. 

I can of course benefit from forward growth too. 

Suction simply places the tongue where it needs to be. 

Someone should ask these questions in the Myofunctional Therapist Q/A thread!

Posted by: Apollo

Someone should ask these questions in the Myofunctional Therapist Q/A thread!

I'll do it when I get home tonight. If there are other questions people want to ask her or suggestions let me know because I am drawing a blank.

Posted by: Allixa

Posted by: Apollo

Someone should ask these questions in the Myofunctional Therapist Q/A thread!

I'll do it when I get home tonight. If there are other questions people want to ask her or suggestions let me know because I am drawing a blank.

Sorry I already asked about your "clench swallow" technique, but please feel free to submit your own if you have a better way to phrase the question! I would also be curious to hear what she has to say about your open-mouth chewing strategy. In addition to the suction hold question, I think someone should also ask about the notion that there is no one correct tongue posture but that it has to adapt to the current architecture of the palate as treatment progresses. We might also ask about active vs. passive mewing. Generally I'm curious to hear how many of the exercises she prescribes for people are universal and how many of them are tailored to the individual situation. I've been doing mouth taping during sleep for a while, and she has a video about it on her youtube page, so I might come up with something to ask about that. I'm happy to write up some of these questions but I didn't want to monopolize the Q/A.

No worries about asking the clench swallow question. I want as much feedback from the pros on that theory as possible.

I went ahead and made my post in the Q&A thread. You can check it out and add any that I missed.

Posted by: Allixa

 

Now when you push, make sure that you don't overpower your jaw muscles because that just leads to more issues. Find a way to keep things in balance and make sure it feels good. It takes time to Mew properly as well. A long time. Years for some people. Just keep at it.

Can you give me an example of what you mean when you say overpowering my jaw muscles?