Because it prevents you from having ideal tongue and oral posture, it would allow the maxilla to drop instead up being pushed up and forwards directly on the palate.
The "y-plate" is the same as other acrylic expanders in that regard, but yes, it is not ideal that these appliances occupy the roof of the mouth. The rationale is that it's worth the trade off to gain more tongue space that will facilitate better oral posture when the appliance is removed. If you already have enough intermolar width to correctly seat your tongue on your palate, then an expander might be unnecessary.
It doesn't really, since your tongue pushes up on the expander and then the expander pushes up on your skull. The back of my tongue is still up, it's just like mewing with something in between. It would be bad if you kept your tongue down though. My face hasn't lenghtened
But it does hurt your tongue to do this where it comes in contact with the metal piece
I thought about the fact that your tongue pushes up on the device, but you're still not getting the ideal pressure distribution, and correct placement against the gumline and sides of teeth when you have a device.
Keeping your teeth together will prevent that from happening. The expander is a very temporary device and so the expansion you gain is worth the loss of tongue function for that short period of time. Even if the face did change for the worse from the device, you would make it all back and then some after taking it out thanks to having a newer wider palate. Things like Myobrace, Starecta, and TMJ splints are way worse for you because they go between the teeth and keep your jaw from being able to shut properly which actually leads to lengthening of muscle and bone.
You don't even have to wear the expander all day long either. Another user in this forum got results from just wearing it at night. The fact that it is removable is a huge plus. Now if you overexpand or expand improperly that could lead to some negative changes for sure, but not because of loss of tongue function for just a few months or less.
I saw your photos in the other thread, it seems that your palate is already quite well developed. Is there a reason you want to use an expander? It seems you are hesitant to actually go through with it. Perhaps for good reason. What's your situation like?
I still have crowding, and from what I can tell a lack of forward growth, and possibly width considering I still have my wisdom teeth, which require more room to not cause the other teeth to crowd. I'm wanting to get a cephalogram to determine whether or not that's the case. The y plate expander seems to cause forward expansion also, which would be great as long as there's not teeth tipping. And I'd chew also to make sure that the lower jaw keeps up with the upper jaw.
What do you mean by incorrectly expanding? What should the rate of expansion be?
Alright, I am going to break up my answer into two posts.
For this first post I will explain about the forward expansion with the y-plate, and why you probably shouldn't do it.
Here's my theory: when you push the front teeth forward using an expander, you don't get maxillary movement, you just push the teeth forward while leaving the maxilla behind causing something known as bimaxillary protrusion. Check this photo:
Notice how the front teeth are tipped badly and really far away from the maxilla? That's an example of what might happen when you use an expander to push forward on the teeth.
Here's some examples of what happened with biobloc:
Notice in the first image how the girls lips are now pushed forward while her eye support and nose look pretty much the same. Now notice how the boy has a jaw that is rotated up and pushed forward while his eye support is still the same. It seems that pushing forward with an expander barely affects the maxilla in children and so for adults the effect would be even less.
Now there is a chance that the y-plate device engages more of the palate than the biobloc and thus might lead to some real forward growth, but I doubt it. Which leads me to this principle:
The correct way to move the front teeth forward is to move the entire maxilla forward.
Expanding side to side is different and does seem possible in adults though. I am going to use the y-expander to create that kind of movement by only using the back screw. I might experiment with the front screw as well just to try and prove myself wrong, but my hopes are not high. If the y-plate does provide true forward growth you should be able to feel it in your whole skull and not just in your teeth, but for now my recommendation is to not use the forward expansion screw of the device unless you are really sure of what you are doing. Forward growth should happen naturally when you mew correctly and have good occlusion and chew well too. Also we are experimenting with other ways of getting forward growth so maybe in time we will find something better.
What do you mean by incorrectly expanding? What should the rate of expansion be?
When I mentioned incorrect expansion what I meant was either going at the wrong rate (too slow or too fast) or over-expanding out of desperation for better looks/results.
The rate that most people who follow Mew generally agree with is about 1mm per week, which works out to 1 turn of the expander every other day or so. Each turn of the screw is 1/4mm of expansion. But you should double check that with your device when you get it.
But I am still not sure whether it is better to expand in bursts or all at once. I've seen people get results with both methods. You probably have to figure that out for yourself based on what feels right.
That said have you tried simply mewing to get expansion? Your palate seems wide enough to make that a possibility. And how is your occlusion?
Alright, I am going to break up my answer into two posts.
For this first post I will explain about the forward expansion with the y-plate, and why you probably shouldn't do it.
Here's my theory: when you push the front teeth forward using an expander, you don't get maxillary movement, you just push the teeth forward while leaving the maxilla behind causing something known as bimaxillary protrusion.
....
The correct way to move the front teeth forward is to move the entire maxilla forward.
Expanding side to side is different and does seem possible in adults though. I am going to use the y-expander to create that kind of movement by only using the back screw. I might experiment with the front screw as well just to try and prove myself wrong, but my hopes are not high. If the y-plate does provide true forward growth you should be able to feel it in your whole skull and not just in your teeth, but for now my recommendation is to not use the forward expansion screw of the device unless you are really sure of what you are doing. Forward growth should happen naturally when you mew correctly and have good occlusion and chew well too. Also we are experimenting with other ways of getting forward growth so maybe in time we will find something better.
So, you think that maxillary upswings Mews are getting are sololey from muscle effect and posture?
Here is a good example.
How is mewing for maxillary growth any different than a Y expander? The Y expander would cover the roof of the mouth, starting at the incisive papilla. This would provide constant pressure and remodeling in the forward direction. Isn't that what we want our tongues to do when we are mewing? Placing the tip at the incisive papilla and applying pressure forward?
How is mewing for maxillary growth any different than a Y expander? The Y expander would cover the roof of the mouth, starting at the incisive papilla. This would provide constant pressure and remodeling in the forward direction. Isn't that what we want our tongues to do when we are mewing? Placing the tip at the incisive papilla and applying pressure forward?
The difference is that the front screw of the Y expander is exerting its reciprocal force on the back teeth/palate to move forward the front teeth/palate. Since your back teeth are bigger, it's likely that your front teeth would move forward more than the back teeth would move back, but there is still that backward component that isn't ideal in my mind. In contrast, the force of the tongue is anchored to your mandible, antagonizing the masseters, so there is no negative reciprocal force.
How is mewing for maxillary growth any different than a Y expander? The Y expander would cover the roof of the mouth, starting at the incisive papilla. This would provide constant pressure and remodeling in the forward direction. Isn't that what we want our tongues to do when we are mewing? Placing the tip at the incisive papilla and applying pressure forward?
I'd have to hold the device in my hand and test it in my mouth to know for sure, but my theory is that the device cannot place the same force vectors that the tongue can and would lead to poorer results and growth. If the device engages the entire palate, and if you can push up on it with your tongue while it pushes forward, then perhaps the results from it would be good. I can't say for sure until I use one. But that's only if the device engages the palate. Devices like the biobloc don't even do that, they just push directly on the back of the teeth.
And I know that when I use my tongue to push forward, I can push from really far back in my palate which I don't think that any expander can do.
Alright, I am going to break up my answer into two posts.
For this first post I will explain about the forward expansion with the y-plate, and why you probably shouldn't do it.
Here's my theory: when you push the front teeth forward using an expander, you don't get maxillary movement, you just push the teeth forward while leaving the maxilla behind causing something known as bimaxillary protrusion.
....
The correct way to move the front teeth forward is to move the entire maxilla forward.
Expanding side to side is different and does seem possible in adults though. I am going to use the y-expander to create that kind of movement by only using the back screw. I might experiment with the front screw as well just to try and prove myself wrong, but my hopes are not high. If the y-plate does provide true forward growth you should be able to feel it in your whole skull and not just in your teeth, but for now my recommendation is to not use the forward expansion screw of the device unless you are really sure of what you are doing. Forward growth should happen naturally when you mew correctly and have good occlusion and chew well too. Also we are experimenting with other ways of getting forward growth so maybe in time we will find something better.
So, you think that maxillary upswings Mews are getting are sololey from muscle effect and posture?
Here is a good example.
No it's quite the opposite really. I think that the majority of 'success stories' that you see from orthotropics involving the biobloc are actually just teeth movement and not true facial changes. I tried to show that with my pictures above a bit. I don't think that devices like the biobloc actually create much facial change, they just severely displace the teeth which can allow the lower jaw to advance. Lateral expansion seems to be the exception to that rule.
I agree with everything you said but at the very least the biobloc after pics sure do look much better than the before pics. Even if only teeth tipped out at least the profiles became stronger due to mandible forward movement.
@Allixa
I see, but you cant deny that they are getting some midface upswings (like in the pictures I linked) even in adults in short periods of time. And what biobloc does, besides functional things (learning proper posture, giving more airspace so its easier to mew), it moves lower jaw forward, using acrylic fangs that cause bone resorption. Maybe lower jaw somehow causes whole face upswing, maybe just tongue and chewing? I dont know, would like to know what do you guys think about it.
Alright, I am going to break up my answer into two posts.
For this first post I will explain about the forward expansion with the y-plate, and why you probably shouldn't do it.
Here's my theory: when you push the front teeth forward using an expander, you don't get maxillary movement, you just push the teeth forward while leaving the maxilla behind causing something known as bimaxillary protrusion. Check this photo:
Notice how the front teeth are tipped badly and really far away from the maxilla? That's an example of what might happen when you use an expander to push forward on the teeth.
Here's some examples of what happened with biobloc:
Notice in the first image how the girls lips are now pushed forward while her eye support and nose look pretty much the same. Now notice how the boy has a jaw that is rotated up and pushed forward while his eye support is still the same. It seems that pushing forward with an expander barely affects the maxilla in children and so for adults the effect would be even less.
Now there is a chance that the y-plate device engages more of the palate than the biobloc and thus might lead to some real forward growth, but I doubt it. Which leads me to this principle:
The correct way to move the front teeth forward is to move the entire maxilla forward.
Expanding side to side is different and does seem possible in adults though. I am going to use the y-expander to create that kind of movement by only using the back screw. I might experiment with the front screw as well just to try and prove myself wrong, but my hopes are not high. If the y-plate does provide true forward growth you should be able to feel it in your whole skull and not just in your teeth, but for now my recommendation is to not use the forward expansion screw of the device unless you are really sure of what you are doing. Forward growth should happen naturally when you mew correctly and have good occlusion and chew well too. Also we are experimenting with other ways of getting forward growth so maybe in time we will find something better.
The after looks like even less eye support + teeth tipping. Notice how the lashes look like they stick out further. Hopefully this is just an illusion caused by her head being turned to the right a bit.
And as much as I think Mike has done a lot for humanity (as has John), his views on aesthetics are a bit strange. He considers a "flat" profile as CFD but then his biobloc gives patients faces that look like they suffer from forward head posture. Having an inclined profile like that is not indication of maxillary expansion at all. I don't even know where Mike got the idea that profiles are supposed to have a positive incline anyway. Neutral is ideal.
You bring up some good points. I think Mew knows that the biobloc isn't a great system - he said something to that effect in one of his recent videos.
About incline, yeah it looks like having a positive one isn't automatically good. Might depend on phenotype.
You bring up some good points. I think Mew knows that the biobloc isn't a great system - he said something to that effect in one of his recent videos.
About incline, yeah it looks like having a positive one isn't automatically good. Might depend on phenotype.
To be honest I don't know that positive incline is actually part of anyone's phenotype. Seems like a forward head positioning thing to me. Same with negative incline.
Note I am not talking about things like soft tissue like lips or nose that may protrude differently on different people. But what I do know is that no infants have a positive incline and have straight jaws. Maybe some people have a more robust profile with less neoteny due to prenatal T exposure that causes their jawbones to grow large relative to their face, but even then I am not convinced that a healthy posture would allow for a positively inclined profile. After all, it is a feature of facial lengthening and forward head posture. I have started doubting these phenotype theories after seeing my own profile go from positively inclined to flatter.
Yeah after looking at more photos and thinking things over I think you are right. I remember the first place I learned about the positive incline was from claimingpower. From this image:
But looking at the full image of the person on the right shows that it's actually forward head posture like you are saying:
I also looked at some celebrities with good facial development and they all seemed to have a neutral incline. This makes the biobloc after images look even worse to me, just like you said in your other post.
Yeah after looking at more photos and thinking things over I think you are right. I remember the first place I learned about the positive incline was from claimingpower. From this image:
But looking at the full image of the person on the right shows that it's actually forward head posture like you are saying:
I also looked at some celebrities with good facial development and they all seemed to have a neutral incline. This makes the biobloc after images look even worse to me, just like you said in your other post.
Exactly. Also we have to keep in mind Claiming Power is just a guy with a blog and with no training in any sort of anatomy or physiology, let alone any formal training in how bones or muscles of the skull work. Good on him for getting info out there, but the way many of his blog posts read was just like a guy trying to figure out his own situation more than anything else. I did get good info from the blog though.
I think the whole "forward" aspect had people thinking that prognathic type profiles were indicative of a maxilla positioned properly. That hits home because I have had prognathism since I was in high school (when my posture began to really degrade). My maxillary development is terrible and I found it odd that people were assigning "aesthetics of the gods" to people with conditions similar to mine .
A neutral (flat) incline is ideal IMO because it is the most neotenous and because it is one that happens when humans position their head correctly. Retrognathic profiles look unnatural (many are created via orthodontists) and prognathic profiles look like the person hasn't learned to walk correctly.
I also don't buy the idea that prognathism is part of a population's genetics. The same way narrow triangulated palates with crowding are not genetic I believe is the same reason profiles with a positive incline also are not genetic. *Maybe* some populations are more gerontomorphic in that regard but I have a feeling nutrition probably has more to do with it.
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