i use none or i angle my pillow to chin tuck it takes awhile to get used to

I use very soft memory foam because it feels like your head is resting on air, with a regular pillow it feels like my face is squished, but with memory foam it feels like it "balances" if that makes sesnse. hard to explain unless you try one.

I no longer use a pillow (I had a memory foam one previously).

Initially I did this because I've been working on my body posture and the muscle stretching (of my neck muscles) would largely undo itself overnight and I'd be tight again in the morning. Going without a pillow seems to helped prevent that because it keeps the muscles lengthened.

The above was when I slept on my back, which I stupidly thought was the best way to sleep, but it's flawed thinking for a number of reasons. I've now switched to sleeping on my right side...still without a pillow. The reason for this is a combination of things. 1) Your heart isn't central, so the optimum sleeping posture isn't central either. 2) The lymphatic system also has positional bias...on the same side as the heart again. 3) I'd previously been thinking about whether I could sleep in a different position to prevent gravity from pushing down on my maxilla. Side sleeping actually accomplishes this, because the forward and up directions of desired maxilla growth end up being in the plane perpendicular to gravity. Even better for me, it's my right side of my jaw that's a little shallower in the arch, so gravity should also help equalise that over time or at least it can't hurt!

Posted by: ava

I no longer use a pillow (I had a memory foam one previously).

Initially I did this because I've been working on my body posture and the muscle stretching (of my neck muscles) would largely undo itself overnight and I'd be tight again in the morning. Going without a pillow seems to helped prevent that because it keeps the muscles lengthened.

The above was when I slept on my back, which I stupidly thought was the best way to sleep, but it's flawed thinking for a number of reasons. I've now switched to sleeping on my right side...still without a pillow. The reason for this is a combination of things. 1) Your heart isn't central, so the optimum sleeping posture isn't central either. 2) The lymphatic system also has positional bias...on the same side as the heart again. 3) I'd previously been thinking about whether I could sleep in a different position to prevent gravity from pushing down on my maxilla. Side sleeping actually accomplishes this, because the forward and up directions of desired maxilla growth end up being in the plane perpendicular to gravity. Even better for me, it's my right side of my jaw that's a little shallower in the arch, so gravity should also help equalise that over time or at least it can't hurt!

now I have in doubts, slept on the side or coast? . I see many users saying that I slept from the coast without a pillow and the best thing I will follow the post for more information

Posted by: ava

1) Your heart isn't central, so the optimum sleeping posture isn't central either. 2) The lymphatic system also has positional bias...on the same side as the heart again.

Can you elaborate on the relevancy of these points? What about the anatomical position of heart makes sleeping on one's back detrimental in your view?

@Progress It's not that sleeping on your back is especially detrimental, it's that there's an in-built bias to the way the body works and sleeping on my side is a way to compensate for that. It's why people always have slightly different growth patterns on each side, or at least that's the way I see it (people generally have one foot slightly larger than the other, women always have one boob bigger than the other and it's always the left one, etc.).

Really I just added up some various things I read and connected the dots. Specifically, I was searching around sleeping postures and stumbled upon an article arguing that sleeping on the right side is beneficial. That particular individual was coming at it from a slightly religious stand point (Islam states it's beneficial explicitly), but it made sense in my brain particularly because that's what comes naturally (I'd had to artificially train myself to sleep on my back...I never did it when I was younger!).

The lymphatic stuff wasn't mentioned in that article, only the heart.

Separately, I have to manually apply hormone replacement creams on my body from time to time and stumbled upon an article mentioning that they should only ever be applied below the naval, because the lymphatic system is asymmetrical in the chest area from a connectivity point of view (I don't have the links handy, but the left arm has a more direct link to the pathway that goes down by the heart than the right arm does. If you apply these creams to the arms for instance, you get asymmetrical uptake, whereas below the naval, it's symmetrical).

Anyway, my reasoning was fairly simplistic. There's a lot of "common sense" wisdom in religious texts that's most likely based on empirical evidence over a long period of time; after all, that's what stories were always for...a way of passing on important knowledge and lessons (I'm an atheist though!). Logically, having seen diagrams of the circulatory and lymphatic systems, it makes sense to me that some parts of the body need more help than others due to that asymmetrical nature. I'm just letting gravity assist with getting blood flow to the right hand side of my body, and to help equalise the loads over time. The human body tends to adapt to demand (use it or lose it), so sleeping on your back more than likely re-enforces that asymmetrical nature. I'm just trying to counter balance that.

No one should take what I've said as the the absolute truth, but those are the reasons I'm doing that. Oh, and the direction of gravity when it comes to the maxilla is just a (very nice) bonus!

Posted by: ava

I no longer use a pillow (I had a memory foam one previously).

Initially I did this because I've been working on my body posture and the muscle stretching (of my neck muscles) would largely undo itself overnight and I'd be tight again in the morning. Going without a pillow seems to helped prevent that because it keeps the muscles lengthened.

The above was when I slept on my back, which I stupidly thought was the best way to sleep, but it's flawed thinking for a number of reasons. I've now switched to sleeping on my right side...still without a pillow. The reason for this is a combination of things. 1) Your heart isn't central, so the optimum sleeping posture isn't central either. 2) The lymphatic system also has positional bias...on the same side as the heart again. 3) I'd previously been thinking about whether I could sleep in a different position to prevent gravity from pushing down on my maxilla. Side sleeping actually accomplishes this, because the forward and up directions of desired maxilla growth end up being in the plane perpendicular to gravity. Even better for me, it's my right side of my jaw that's a little shallower in the arch, so gravity should also help equalise that over time or at least it can't hurt!

your first issue of it feeling tight again in the morning is because your neck doesn't need to be lengthened, it needs to be strengthened. 

tight muscles that are constantly get tight, taught and sore is very clear big red flag of a weak muscle and bad relationship with other contradicting muscles.

I am assuming your talking about your SCMs

If I were you I would stop lengthening your neck muscles, thats not your problem, work on strengthening your upper thoracic extensors, and work on strengthening your SCMs equally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLIWR4juHMs - exercise for the SCM

chin tucks are good for the thoracic extensors and also theres an abundance of videos on youtube on how to strengthen them

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thoracic+extensor+strengthening

but thats not to knock off your other reasons for not using a pillow they sound great

@ava Thanks. I don't know what to think - I have seen good reasoning for both back & side sleeping. Native Americans slept on their back. Parents are usually taught to ensure that their newborn sleeps on their back. On the other hand, in Africa some tribes are said to sleep on their side on order to better hear when enemies are close, although this seems more a socio-biological "meme" than a manifestation of ideal anatomical function.

The main concern with favoring one side over the other is the consequences it is going to have on postural symmetry. People who sleep semi-exclusively on one side tend to be scoliotic and facially asymmetric in a way that correlates with their sleeping habits. 

My own hunch is that circulatory & lymphatic function are not going to be significantly affected by sleeping position in a person with normal blood pressure. If both systems work well when you are standing up and doing your daily chores, it seems reasonable to assume that they will continue working regardless of your sleeping posture.

I agree with @fuzzyrider, strengthening over stretching is something I feel strongly about. Stretching in itself is rarely useful as a long term solution. Instead of stretching a tight muscle, strengthen the weak opposing muscle that allows the tightening to happen in the first place. Ideally opposing muscles will keep each other in a state of balanced tension, so that neither will elongate nor tighten excessively.

Posted by: fuzzyrider

Posted by: ava

I no longer use a pillow (I had a memory foam one previously).

Initially I did this because I've been working on my body posture and the muscle stretching (of my neck muscles) would largely undo itself overnight and I'd be tight again in the morning. Going without a pillow seems to helped prevent that because it keeps the muscles lengthened.

The above was when I slept on my back, which I stupidly thought was the best way to sleep, but it's flawed thinking for a number of reasons. I've now switched to sleeping on my right side...still without a pillow. The reason for this is a combination of things. 1) Your heart isn't central, so the optimum sleeping posture isn't central either. 2) The lymphatic system also has positional bias...on the same side as the heart again. 3) I'd previously been thinking about whether I could sleep in a different position to prevent gravity from pushing down on my maxilla. Side sleeping actually accomplishes this, because the forward and up directions of desired maxilla growth end up being in the plane perpendicular to gravity. Even better for me, it's my right side of my jaw that's a little shallower in the arch, so gravity should also help equalise that over time or at least it can't hurt!

your first issue of it feeling tight again in the morning is because your neck doesn't need to be lengthened, it needs to be strengthened. 

tight muscles that are constantly get tight, taught and sore is very clear big red flag of a weak muscle and bad relationship with other contradicting muscles.

I am assuming your talking about your SCMs

If I were you I would stop lengthening your neck muscles, thats not your problem, work on strengthening your upper thoracic extensors, and work on strengthening your SCMs equally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLIWR4juHMs - exercise for the SCM

chin tucks are good for the thoracic extensors and also theres an abundance of videos on youtube on how to strengthen them

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thoracic+extensor+strengthening

but thats not to knock off your other reasons for not using a pillow they sound great

 

Thanks for the suggestions, they're appreciated!

Regarding the muscles I've been stretching. I've had extremely bad posture from a _very_ early age, which was mainly due to low self esteem and problems at home growing up. My head ended up far forward, with my rib cage rotated back, resulting in rib-flare, strong lower back muscles, over active pecs, etc. (upper cross syndrome). Frankly there's been a lot to undo, so it's not quite as simple as just worrying about forward head posture. Pec stretches were required so that I could get my shoulders back, consciously rotating my rib cage forward and deliberately engaging my upper abs is also something I have to do. Yes, I've also been stretching the scalenes and the sternocleidomastoid also. Also the levator scapulae. Before all of that I'd been working quite hard on pushing my head back and it became fairly apparently fairly quickly that those other muscles were the thing ultimately restricting my movement, but you're right that I have some weak muscles also. My approach has been fairly passive...that is, only work on release and let my natural activity strengthen the other muscles. Whether that's a good approach or not I can't say, but my reasoning for that was that I didn't want to overtrain anything. Letting the muscles take up the slack in their own time seems like a good way to get a natural result. The reason I focus on stretching is something I alluded to elsewhere. The body is good at optimising itself for a particular configuration. I only have to think about using my previously over-activated muscles and they bulk up again. That's natural. The various pathways that maintain those muscles have had a lifetime (I'm 40!) of reinforcement! Just to be clear when I say that I need to keep my neck lengthened, it's because the muscles on my left side in particular are very good at repairing themselves, while the right side is always quite flexible regardless of how I sleep. Again, that's something that perhaps shouldn't be that surprising given the positioning of the relevant muscles groups relative to the heart. Anyway, I've made some good gains, and you're right, some of my muscles definitely need strengthening, but the ones that seem to be holding me back the most at the moment are actually my upper abs. Without the necessary development there (again, they've been under-used my entire life!), it's hard to stabilise my rib cage, which is necessary to push my head back without resulting in rib-cage rotation instead. It's all ok though, because things are definitely in progress! ;-)

Posted by: Progress

@ava Thanks. I don't know what to think - I have seen good reasoning for both back & side sleeping. Native Americans slept on their back. Parents are usually taught to ensure that their newborn sleeps on their back. On the other hand, in Africa some tribes are said to sleep on their side on order to better hear when enemies are close, although this seems more a socio-biological "meme" than a manifestation of ideal anatomical function.

The main concern with favoring one side over the other is the consequences it is going to have on postural symmetry. People who sleep semi-exclusively on one side tend to be scoliotic and facially asymmetric in a way that correlates with their sleeping habits. 

My own hunch is that circulatory & lymphatic function are not going to be significantly affected by sleeping position in a person with normal blood pressure. If both systems work well when you are standing up and doing your daily chores, it seems reasonable to assume that they will continue working regardless of your sleeping posture.

 

I agree with @fuzzyrider, strengthening over stretching is something I feel strongly about. Stretching in itself is rarely useful as a long term solution. Instead of stretching a tight muscle, strengthen the weak opposing muscle that allows the tightening to happen in the first place. Ideally opposing muscles will keep each other in a state of balanced tension, so that neither will elongate nor tighten excessively.

All good points, but I will take the time to get a bit more explicit and point out a fairly specific to me example of the overall bias.

I'm trans, so I've been on female hormones for the last two years...almost to the day (July the 1st!). For the entirety of that time I've slept on my back as I only changed my sleeping habits recently. Why did I change those habits? Well oddly enough because my left boob is most definitely bigger than my right (but they're both new because I was very lean pre-transition!). Obviously it's not possible to control all variables, but my life has been fairly simple for that time, so I can say pretty conclusively that I don't do any activities with inherent asymmetry encouraging behaviours in them, so I haven't encouraged that asymmetrical growth (I also broke my arm when I was three, so I'm partially ambi-dextrous). Clearly that boob is bigger for a reason, and yet if all else was equal, it probably shouldn't be. All this despite sleeping on my back since pretty close to the start of the decade. That on top of my bodies ability to repair my left hand side neck muscles far more effectively than the right, confirms to me at least, that there is some pretty significant bias in my body, and while it's all probably a bit hit and miss, makes trying to improve things a very worthwhile thing to try. YMMV of course...and it's probably worth pointing out that my age probably means that the ability of my body to function in an ideal way is probably greatly reduced at this point!

@ava I also have body assymteries, very rare to find somebody who doesnt in this day and age. I know that my left SCM is a little bit shorter than my right, but that's because I have mild scoliosis, so If I were right now to do a stretch my right side is very loose and can't even feel a thing and my left is very tight (althought I dont have any pain whatsoever during the day). Even if I spend an hour a day stretching it, it will go back to its original tight length because thats simply how my body sits. This is why I believe stretching is a pointless activity for the vast majority. Muscle strengthening brings long-term and stable results. 

Posted by: fuzzyrider

@ava I also have body assymteries, very rare to find somebody who doesnt in this day and age. I know that my left SCM is a little bit shorter than my right, but that's because I have mild scoliosis, so If I were right now to do a stretch my right side is very loose and can't even feel a thing and my left is very tight (althought I dont have any pain whatsoever during the day). Even if I spend an hour a day stretching it, it will go back to its original tight length because thats simply how my body sits. This is why I believe stretching is a pointless activity for the vast majority. Muscle strengthening brings long-term and stable results. 

 

 

 

Oh, absolutely. I'm not trying to attain perfect symmetry or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the best with what I've got. So far I have to say that things seem to be changing for the better (I won't go in to the details of other changes simply because I've already talked about myself quite a lot and it must be getting boring!).

I originally wrote quite a bit more about my reasons for preferring stretching over muscle building, but I think I've already hi-jacked this thread enough, so I should probably try to wrap this up now. I will just say that I believe that stretching is the right solution for me due to my rather unique combination of biology, hormones, and aesthetic goals, but I'm entirely happy to accept that strengthening might be a more suitable solution for others. People should absolutely strive to do what's right for them! :-)

I know sleeping on the left side is supposed to help prevent heartburn since the gastric acid can pool with the greater curvature of the stomach pointed down rather than following gravity up the esophagus.