...people see what people want to see.....

Take vitamin K. for example.
On some forums it is said that taking vitamin k reverse cavities and keeps teeth clean and free from tartar and guess what brings back those who surf those forums? of course reverse cavities and stronger and cleaner teeth. No one has ever reported a case of increased cheekbones. On this forum instead, taking vitamin k increases cheekbones, but does not cure cavities. The miracles of vitamin k ....

Do you want to see something disconcerting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYni9Yq4FyQ

Read the comments under this video .... they are the same ones you can read here on this forum .... exactly the same…… and we are talking about subliminal messages…. creazy stuff….

some useres even said that mewing doesn't work but subliminal messages do work….

...people see what people want to see.....

However, I am very willing to change my mind as soon as someone brings a shred of evidence.

I have been arguing for a while that people should make an impression cast of their teeth before starting mewing and after 6 months just to confirm they are getting anything. 

Technically moving teeth is the simplest and easiest form of change you can have from mewing. The alveolar ridge is very responsive to pressure. Yet, aside from maybe @TGW, no body has done this.

That's unfortunate because it's relatively easy to make casts, and sharing them will not compromise the user's identity. Instead all we get are claims of such and such expansion.

The thing is I don't doubt that such people truly believe they are getting such changes, it's just that I doubt reality matches their claims, because people tend to overestimate and it's hard to measure inter molar width.

Just to give you an example, every month I saw my orthodontist I asked him how much expansion I had and he would look and say plenty. I kept pressing him for a figure so he used a drawing compass and placed it on the center of my first upper molars in an identifiable depression. The he measured that distance and compared it with the cast he took before treatment and came up with 3mm expansion in the inter molar width.

He used a drawing compass because he could not get his small caliber inside my mouth. I don't know how people here say they are making precises measurements with a caliber inside their mouth.

Anyway, shortly after when the 6 month mark approached he made for me a cast and to my unpleasant surprise my expansion was a meager 1.5mm, exactly half!

Just goes to show that even a professional can overestimate such measurement if not done precisely. Of course forum users have come up with all kinds of creative ways to estimate inter molar width, but when measuring something as precises, there is no substitute for hard evidence such as a cast. 

The thing is I don't doubt that such people truly believe they are getting such changes, it's just that I doubt reality matches their claims, because people tend to overestimate and it's hard to measure inter molar width.

 I don't know how people here say they are making precises measurements with a caliber inside their mouth.

I started at 17 and haven't seen any change besides 1-2mm imw increase. I agree that a lot of before and afters are just taken from different angles or some lighting illusion is going on. Talking good before and after photos is really hard IMO. I still believe mewing works in adults as @progress and @neveragain definitely gained some facial upswing

EDIT: saw this on reddit :

https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/a7tg89/42_and_born_to_mew_long/

Pretty good facial upswing for a 42 year old 

Posted by: Francybe92

 

Exactly, my measurements range from a minimum of 38 to a maximum of 40 depending on where I place the caliper.

So, since these measurements are not reliable I decided to measure the outer distance of the molars. At the moment is 58mm

Positioning the caliper on 59mm I have no contact between the caliber and the teeth, so, for the future, whether it's palate expansion or tooth tipping, I should be able to measure it.

 

I know this measurement method is not reliable, but I'm only doing it to see if anything really changes.

So in a sense you are measuring something like this:

Posted by: Slinky

I started at 17 and haven't seen any change besides 1-2mm imw increase. I agree that a lot of before and afters are just taken from different angles or some lighting illusion is going on. Talking good before and after photos is really hard IMO. I still believe mewing works in adults as @progress and @neveragain definitely gained some facial upswing

EDIT: saw this on reddit :

https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/a7tg89/42_and_born_to_mew_long/

Pretty good facial upswing for a 42 year old 

I remember your comment on Progress's picture, yet I did not see any upswing not in the maxilla at least.

This example you link to is great. First the change is impressive but hardly depicts a swing in the maxilla, only in the mandible. And that's not skeletal change from what I can tell only muscle tone which is still impressive no doubt.

Forget about the angles which are a little awkward because people taking those pictures don't seem to be able to stop the bad habit of taking the pictures themselves, which puts them in awkward angles. Look at the lighting, notice how in the before the light is coming from the front, where as in the two after the light is coming from top.

Notice how the light from above is creating a highlight on the top of the cheeks and placing a shadow under them. The light is highlighting the bone structure whereas the before lighting is doing the opposite.

I almost always see people doing this, they use two different lighting directions to show a difference. Even Progress's picture had the same exact problem. 

I think people look hard for a difference and when they find it with different lighting they post it as evidence, but had they taken it with consistent light they would find little to no difference in the mid face. The lower face is a different story as mentioned earlier.

I just made a little illustration to clarify my comment above:

@Abdulrahman I must contradict myself. Actually there is a case that amazed me and is the one  for which I have not found an explanation.  I would very much like to have your opinion.

I do not know if the changes are due only to weight loss, different camera lens or something else...

The front pic is ameazing, she really looks like another person .... the distance between the eyes has changed resulting in a more balanced harmonius face…. i can not understand…. you can't fraud the ipd whit improbable anlges or lighting….

Martinez, you only have to look at before and after photos of adult palate expansion. It works.

I've been marking my IMW by putting two pieces of card on either side of a book and biting down on it, and then measuring the distance between the indentations. My IMW has increased a little less than half a mm a week. (16 years old)

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Slinky

I started at 17 and haven't seen any change besides 1-2mm imw increase. I agree that a lot of before and afters are just taken from different angles or some lighting illusion is going on. Talking good before and after photos is really hard IMO. I still believe mewing works in adults as @progress and @neveragain definitely gained some facial upswing

EDIT: saw this on reddit :

https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/a7tg89/42_and_born_to_mew_long/

Pretty good facial upswing for a 42 year old 

I remember your comment on Progress's picture, yet I did not see any upswing not in the maxilla at least.

This example you link to is great. First the change is impressive but hardly depicts a swing in the maxilla, only in the mandible. And that's not skeletal change from what I can tell only muscle tone which is still impressive no doubt.

Forget about the angles which are a little awkward because people taking those pictures don't seem to be able to stop the bad habit of taking the pictures themselves, which puts them in awkward angles. Look at the lighting, notice how in the before the light is coming from the front, where as in the two after the light is coming from top.

Notice how the light from above is creating a highlight on the top of the cheeks and placing a shadow under them. The light is highlighting the bone structure whereas the before lighting is doing the opposite.

I almost always see people doing this, they use two different lighting directions to show a difference. Even Progress's picture had the same exact problem. 

I think people look hard for a difference and when they find it with different lighting they post it as evidence, but had they taken it with consistent light they would find little to no difference in the mid face. The lower face is a different story as mentioned earlier.

well i guess you're right. Maybe mewing after 12 is just one big placebo. You see i'm not seeing any results despite having 40 mm imw, proper swallow and pretty good body posture. I guess MSE is the only way

Posted by: Martinez

@Abdulrahman I must contradict myself. Actually there is a case that amazed me and is the one  for which I have not found an explanation.  I would very much like to have your opinion.

 

 

 

I do not know if the changes are due only to weight loss, different camera lens or something else...

The front pic is ameazing, she really looks like another person .... the distance between the eyes has changed resulting in a more balanced harmonius face…. i can not understand…. you can't fraud the ipd whit improbable anlges or lighting….

 

 

This looks like a pretty consistent comparison. The lighting is consistent and angles are pretty good. The after profile picture could have been taken from the center more, but its not bad. I think the camera distance seems pretty consistent too.

Her results look great, but if I am not mistaken this patient had expansion with a skeletal expander plus myofunctional therapy.

Posted by: Slinky

well i guess you're right. Maybe mewing after 12 is just one big placebo. You see i'm not seeing any results despite having 40 mm imw, proper swallow and pretty good body posture. I guess MSE is the only way

I am not ready to assume that yet but you know Dr. Mike Mew could be a little more reasonable and share with us some inspirational examples, especially that he keeps saying he got way better results than the last example (Dafne) he showed. Mind you she was using the full treatment with hybrid appliance and head gear and showed small progress after about 1.25 years. Funny enough her ogee curve looks smaller in the after. I am sure that was not intended.

Here are several pictures from Honor Franklin Myofunctional Therapy Clinic:

https://www.honorfranklin.com/myofunctional-gallery.html

Not sure if myofunctional therapy is the *only* thing they did or not, but there are some pretty drastic changes here.

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Martinez

@Abdulrahman I must contradict myself. Actually there is a case that amazed me and is the one  for which I have not found an explanation.  I would very much like to have your opinion.

 

 

 

I do not know if the changes are due only to weight loss, different camera lens or something else...

The front pic is ameazing, she really looks like another person .... the distance between the eyes has changed resulting in a more balanced harmonius face…. i can not understand…. you can't fraud the ipd whit improbable anlges or lighting….

 

 

This looks like a pretty consistent comparison. The lighting is consistent and angles are pretty good. The after profile picture could have been taken from the center more, but its not bad. I think the camera distance seems pretty consistent too.

Her results look great, but if I am not mistaken this patient had expansion with a skeletal expander plus myofunctional therapy.

Yeah SARPE iirc

These images might just have been frauded but this picture stood out to me. Seems like his eyes improved a little maybe cheekbones got lifted/further forward as a result of maxilla.

But what is mylofuntional therapy really tho?

Mike Mew has claimed he does not know if mewing works to bring the maxilla up and forwards in adults, and possesses no hard evidence. Then there is the issue that practically no one only Mews. They will also get a device and/or face pull. Then some will attribute it to just mewing, but why? Taking pictures to these standards may be difficult for some and may require special tools. I did finally gather the materials to make dental casts which was expensive so I can see why hardly anyone does this, or asks their dentist for one which is also expensive. This is a free forum centred around a free practice: not everyone will have the finances and dedication to provide proofs to these standards.

@MeMeMe Myofunctional therapy is basically tongue, mouth and throat exercises.  So mewing falls under that category.  

@Greensmoothies Good perspective.  I would add to that that if you truly want to see changes from mewing alone, it requires a level of dedication few possess.  It's high intensity over a long period of time.  It needs to truly become an obsession, and not a lot of people have the capability to put in that amount of effort for years and years.

Jamo in this thread is in my opinion the most drastic case study, and if you listen to the way he talks about it, he truly made it a consuming passion.  Even though the pictures aren't taken at the same angles, I see the before and after as undeniable change.  That said, he was also going through puberty while doing it, so the verdict is still up in the air for adults.

Posted by: faceup

Martinez, you only have to look at before and after photos of adult palate expansion. It works.

Yes, palate expansion works in adults, but only with invasive surgical procedure like SARPE (where they literary cut out your bones) or with expansive treatment and appliance like RME. Here we are talking about expanding palate with just mewing and... in adults… thus far no one has reported any evidence that just mewing works to any extent.

I'm 100% sure that mewing and posture works but just for children from 0 to 12yo

Jamo in this thread is in my opinion the most drastic case study, and if you listen to the way he talks about it, he truly made it a consuming passion.  Even though the pictures aren't taken at the same angles, I see the before and after as undeniable change.  That said, he was also going through puberty while doing it, so the verdict is still up in the air for adults.

Seoriusly…. have you saw his pictures?

Posted by: MeMeMe

These images might just have been frauded but this picture stood out to me. Seems like his eyes improved a little maybe cheekbones got lifted/further forward as a result of maxilla.

But what is mylofuntional therapy really tho?

 

 

 

 

I don't  know… they seems to take pictures of the patient always in this order:

Mouth open and head tilted down

Mouth close teeth apart and head tilted down

Mouth close teeth toghrter and head tilted up

Posted by: Martinez

Posted by: faceup

Martinez, you only have to look at before and after photos of adult palate expansion. It works.

Yes, palate expansion works in adults, but only with invasive surgical procedure like SARPE (where they literary cut out your bones) or with expansive treatment and appliance like RME. Here we are talking about expanding palate with just mewing and... in adults… thus far no one has reported any evidence that just mewing works to any extent.

I'm 100% sure that mewing and posture works but just for children from 0 to 12yo

The appliances are not ultra expensive if you decide you want to do it yourself without going to a professional.

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/clear-retainers-and-fake-braces/32/palatinal-expander

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/23/modified-stretching-plate?number=0078

I think the reason why many adults don't see as much progress is because yes they are adults, which makes it slower and also because they're not doing it 24 hours a day. They forget, they don't do it while asleep.

The guy over in this ( /community/community/main-forum/hey-guys-mewing-doesnt-work-sarcasm-age-15-21-before-after-itt/) thread really dedicated himself to it and i'm sure he said he did it hard, which makes it similar to wearing a palate expander that's in most of the time. I think adults that wear a palate expander see changes within weeks. It's that quick. I'm ordering one from the website I linked and I am going to start in January, but I am going to be very careful as I am doing it by myself.

I've been trying to mew constantly for the past few days and I am beginning to get it. I stopped focusing on the front of the palate and instead focused more on the back and man.. it feels great. I feels like my palate has expanded already. I've got my tongue in between and it's feeling quite easy to keep it up there. I can't wait to see what the palate expander does.

Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@MeMeMe Myofunctional therapy is basically tongue, mouth and throat exercises.  So mewing falls under that category.  

@Greensmoothies Good perspective.  I would add to that that if you truly want to see changes from mewing alone, it requires a level of dedication few possess.  It's high intensity over a long period of time.  It needs to truly become an obsession, and not a lot of people have the capability to put in that amount of effort for years and years.

Jamo in this thread is in my opinion the most drastic case study, and if you listen to the way he talks about it, he truly made it a consuming passion.  Even though the pictures aren't taken at the same angles, I see the before and after as undeniable change.  That said, he was also going through puberty while doing it, so the verdict is still up in the air for adults.

Jamo is a good example of what I mentioned with people mewing and doing other things, then attributing their result to mewing. He was advocating face pulling with a belt in 2016 on lookism so then it becomes difficult to tease apart the result. He certainly provides to be an inspiration nonetheless and he got me sleep mewing several years ago which I believed doubled my progress. Then I hard mewed for a few years but stopped the practice once I realised that increasing my tongue strength garners the same pressure feeling without needing to think about pressing the tongue. Just mewing is difficult having done only that for 5 years, even ceasing my face exercise regime (which will give you comparable physical results to mewing). What happened to me is pretty much the same as the 42 year old pictured earlier in this thread: the mandible comes up, the maxilla seems to hardly move. Like OP I haven't seen anything that's contrary to my experience there re: midface.

When you start off in a pit of dysfunction, to climb out with just mewing alone is a high intensity effort. High effort and low reward. If I could have a do-over then I would just get a device to help me in the beginning.

The reason why mewing doest work in adults is because after puberty suture are closed

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24182592

When your palate sutures reaches the D stage it's almost impossible to achive scheletal result with standard appliance.

Orthodontis reports that even in the C stage (during puberty)  results are hard to get.

The best stages where you can get the most results are A and B which occur, guess when…. till 12-13 yo

Yes as I have been reversing my molar extraction from my braces, I have my mold before I started the reversal and during I have gained 4mm and I am still in treatment. I have measurements of both the cast and this is just opening the spaces not using a expander yet. I am assuming currently I have gained another 2mm, once I get the next cast I will post it here again.. in the reverse braces extractions post. 

btw there are many here who have increased their imw and thus a wider palate. Maybe you have not been looking properly, I agree the photos taken make it very difficult to tell if some or any progress has been made however some users like myself have uploaded our cast photos. 

Posted by: ani3000

Yes as I have been reversing my molar extraction from my braces, I have my mold before I started the reversal and during I have gained 4mm and I am still in treatment. I have measurements of both the cast and this is just opening the spaces not using a expander yet. I am assuming currently I have gained another 2mm, once I get the next cast I will post it here again.. in the reverse braces extractions post. 

What are you using to reverse your extractions and are you going through an orthodontist?

Prof John mew was very blunt in his older videos always saying it's too late to alter facial growth after 12 :( . Sucks knowing you'll never achieve proper facial form nature intented for you

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Mike Mew has claimed he does not know if mewing works to bring the maxilla up and forwards in adults, and possesses no hard evidence. Then there is the issue that practically no one only Mews. They will also get a device and/or face pull. Then some will attribute it to just mewing, but why? Taking pictures to these standards may be difficult for some and may require special tools. I did finally gather the materials to make dental casts which was expensive so I can see why hardly anyone does this, or asks their dentist for one which is also expensive. This is a free forum centred around a free practice: not everyone will have the finances and dedication to provide proofs to these standards.

Where I live it costs $50 to get impression casts. In the States it might be more expensive but there is something better:

Posted by: TGW

I'd like to point out to everyone: Virtually all dentists/orthodontists/medical professionals offer free initial consultations.

More importantly, initial consultations for braces or the corrections of under/overbites will often include both X-rays and professional dental+facial photographs. 

Go in and tell them that you've finally decided to try and get everything fixed up. Get whatever exams they offer you, hear their prescribed treatment plan/advice, and call back a few weeks later to request your records. 

There's dozens of clinics in every city, someone willing to drive around is literally sitting on a reserve of 50+ free medical exams and records. 

I've got a full set of x-rays and facial/dental photography from my free consultation a few years ago. I've also had two professional examinations of my mouth done by separate doctors so far during this process to make sure that my teeth were all remaining healthy and no problems were emerging anywhere (all clear). These were both free initial consultations 

If you read TGW comments from the start you will notice that he placed allot of emphasis on documenting, because he knows how difficult it is to show any changes. If only few people who have been frequenting the site for a while do this, it would make a good difference.  

Posted by: Francybe92

Seoriusly…. have you saw his pictures?

He did't even make the effort to take not a good picture but just a normal one.

It looks like a picture taken by some stalker.

When someone asked him for a better photo, he refused to provide it.

Sometimes I get the impression that in this forum there are some trolls who make fun of us and that's not funny at all….

No kidding, lol.

It was me who asked him. The pictures are so bad yet his claim in the title of the thread is so bold that one thinks he is being sarcastic.

Even worse there was a previous thread where he was boasting about the mid line gap he developed. The way he was presenting his case was so immature I thought he was 11 not 21 and people were still believing him.

I really like to see mewing working but I am not that desperate.

Posted by: Slinky

Prof John mew was very blunt in his older videos always saying it's too late to alter facial growth after 12 :( . Sucks knowing you'll never achieve proper facial form nature intented for you

Can I ask you to share with me some of those videos if possible?

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Mike Mew has claimed he does not know if mewing works to bring the maxilla up and forwards in adults, and possesses no hard evidence. Then there is the issue that practically no one only Mews. They will also get a device and/or face pull. Then some will attribute it to just mewing, but why? Taking pictures to these standards may be difficult for some and may require special tools. I did finally gather the materials to make dental casts which was expensive so I can see why hardly anyone does this, or asks their dentist for one which is also expensive. This is a free forum centred around a free practice: not everyone will have the finances and dedication to provide proofs to these standards.

Where I live it costs $50 to get impression casts. In the States it might be more expensive but there is something better:

Posted by: TGW

I'd like to point out to everyone: Virtually all dentists/orthodontists/medical professionals offer free initial consultations.

More importantly, initial consultations for braces or the corrections of under/overbites will often include both X-rays and professional dental+facial photographs. 

Go in and tell them that you've finally decided to try and get everything fixed up. Get whatever exams they offer you, hear their prescribed treatment plan/advice, and call back a few weeks later to request your records. 

There's dozens of clinics in every city, someone willing to drive around is literally sitting on a reserve of 50+ free medical exams and records. 

I've got a full set of x-rays and facial/dental photography from my free consultation a few years ago. I've also had two professional examinations of my mouth done by separate doctors so far during this process to make sure that my teeth were all remaining healthy and no problems were emerging anywhere (all clear). These were both free initial consultations 

If you read TGW comments from the start you will notice that he placed allot of emphasis on documenting, because he knows how difficult it is to show any changes. If only few people who have been frequenting the site for a while do this, it would make a good difference.  

My dentist quoted me that amount too and you'd also need to pay for the after cast of course. To my mind and situation it's expensive, but at least the DIY route seems easy enough and cheaper if you make more than one cast with some additional crafting purposes for the materials as well.

Iirc TGW made that post in response to people asking how to take good pictures, and it seems like a good option for people who live in a city with access to professionals with up-to-date and good equipment, which I don't. I did get my dental X-rays for free from the local dentist, but it proves nothing relevant to our interests besides maybe how much I brux'd my teeth down, lol. With such access I'd go absolutely do this, hopefully more people take note.

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Slinky

Prof John mew was very blunt in his older videos always saying it's too late to alter facial growth after 12 :( . Sucks knowing you'll never achieve proper facial form nature intented for you

Can I ask you to share with me some of those videos if possible?

 

Below the link to the requested video

Best age to start 7-8..... 12yo is too late….. and we are still here discussing whether mewing  works on a 20+ years old adult….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_OBfpdortE

Posted by: Martinez

Below the link to the requested video

Best age to start 7-8..... 12yo is too late….. and we are still here discussing whether mewing  works on a 20+ years old adult….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_OBfpdortE

Thanks, Dr. John Mew is talking in the context of the orthotropic treatment of guiding growth to correct CFD. Dr. Mike Mew on the other hand released so many videos talking about the potential of using bone remolding to correct this problem.

There are videos were he talks about seeing the palate expanding on adults just from adapting a different tongue posture. He even talks about facial upswing which he discussed with me in my consultation with him. 

That's where that idea came from, he talks about remodeling in such a way that it sounds certain then backtracks when cornered about it. Some people got over carried with this and created legends of turning ugly ducklings to drop dead gorgeous models, lol.

There are videos were he talks about seeing the palate expanding on adults just from adapting a different tongue posture. He even talks about facial upswing which he discussed with me in my consultation with him. 

That's where that idea came from, he talks about remodeling in such a way that it sounds certain then backtracks when cornered about it. Some people got over carried with this and created legends of turning ugly ducklings to drop dead gorgeous models, lol.

Posted by: Martinez

 

Can you understand that it makes no sense.

Yea I know what you mean. It's a long topic, but I just want to point out that, not just chewing, but also tongue posturing and nasal breathing are proven to have an effect on facial growth. Just look at the amazing results Dr. John Mew presents with little children. Often treating them with nothing more than teaching them to close their mouth, keep their tongue on the roof of their mouth, chew their food properly and swallow properly. 

Claiming power guy is to be blamed too. All of his content was focused on looks and making people believe they'll turn into models. He himself achieved 0 results over the course of 6 years. Not to forget he is a scammer too 

Yes yes, im not against oral/body posture and hard chewing, i belive that this things really help to growth helty faces during development but the way they are presented is misleading and create more confusion than benefits.

Also comparing models faces with normal people faces is dangerous, because  it creates a very strong sense of inadequacy.

The message is: If you dont look like a model you are grown wrong and you are ugly.

To me this are also some of the reasons why Mike Mew is now in trouble whit the british orthodontics society.

Anyway… we digrressed…. the topic is: "Has anyone seen results?" Proof are appreciated.

I am currently using a removable space re-gainer. If you know any dentist/orthodontist tell them you want to reverse the extractions or you can ask them to order you one, all you need is the putty impression of your teeth. 

I got curve of spee.  Need to get it fixed.  It caused a bit of TMD, too.  The issue is that this does do stuff.  Is it the intended stuff???  My maxilla retruded a bit. 

I had perfect teeth before and now I'm going to go spend a few thousand dollars to try & fix it...  $$$

Posted by: darkindigo

I had perfect teeth before and now I'm going to go spend a few thousand dollars to try & fix it...  $$$

Posted by: darkindigo

I got curve of spee.  Need to get it fixed.  It caused a bit of TMD, too.  The issue is that this does do stuff.  Is it the intended stuff???  My maxilla retruded a bit. 

darkindigo is back!! and as always talking about something unrelated to the topic!!

The amount of absolute BS that is being peddled about Mewing and remodeling the face on "looks" forums is particularly frightening. Take this thread on the Looksmax forum. The guy claims that if you pull on your maxilla with your thumbs and you can "feeling it moving" and "hear a humming sound" then that's a sure sign that it would be possible to move your maxilla without surgery. He is absolutely kidding himself that he feels his maxilla moving, and the sound he refers to is nothing more than tinnitus caused by pressure in the jaw. And yet everyone who responds to the thread seems to take it as gospel without question....

https://looksmax.org/threads/how-to-tell-if-your-maxilla-can-be-moved-without-surgery.5850/

How can you move something like this with just your tongue?

Posted by: Francybe92

Posted by: Francybe92

How can you move something like this with just your tongue?

The sutures are closed so the whole head is a big massive, hard piece of bone
To remodel it effectively you need huge forces over an extended period of time with unpredictable result.

 

Agian, to me appling the meccanostath theory and the bone adaptive elasticity theory is the only way to achive resutls.

 

The solution to the problem lies in reserch on bone remodeling not on someone unproven  beliefs.

https://www.scirp.org/JOURNAL/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=83869

Posted by: Francybe92

How can you move something like this with just your tongue?

The sutures are closed so the whole head is a big massive, hard piece of bone
To remodel it effectively you need huge forces over an extended period of time with unpredictable result.

 

Agian, to me appling the meccanostath theory and the bone adaptive elasticity theory is the only way to achive resutls.

The solution to the problem lies in reserch on bone remodeling not on someone unproven  beliefs.

https://www.scirp.org/JOURNAL/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=83869

As far as I understand remolding does not require suture opening, it can happen any where on the surface of the bones. Growth on the other hand has specific points that only exist on the sutures.

An excpert from this article

http://wweb.uta.edu/faculty/ricard/Classes/KINE-3301/Notes/Lesson-15.html

"Bone tissue is remarkably resilient and adaptable.  There is a tendency to think of bone as inert and resistant to change, when in fact bone is very dynamic tissue.  Introductory exercise science students can all readily quote Dr. Julius Wolff and what is commonly known as Wolff’s Law:  “Every change in the function of a bone is followed by certain definite changes in its internal architecture and its external conformation.” (2, 3, 18).  We now understand that bone responds immediately to exercise that causes strains above or below the level expected.  Current evidence suggests that small cracks, microdamage, in the osteocyte network may appear as soon as 24 h post-loading which then cause the osteocytes to initiate an adaptive remodeling response.  Microdamage in the osteocyte network is thought to disrupt osteocyte to osteocytes communication and fluid flow in the local region.  This microdamage induced disruption of cell communication and fluid flow is thought to trigger bone remodeling (1)."

And Again

Osteocytes are thought to be responsible to measure the strains induced in bone and then initiate an osteogenic response if the strains are above or below typical strain ranges of 400 – 1000 microstrain.  In most animals peak functional strains range from less than 1000 microstrain during walking, to 2000 – 3200 microstrain for vigorous activities (6).  It seems that the objective of adaptive remodeling is to maintain the bone cell structural alignment and mineral density such that typical loads produce strains in the range of 400 – 1000 microstrain.  When typical loads result in less than 400 microstrain the osteocytes would initiate a response to cause bone tissue resorption, and when typical loads are consistently greater than 1000 microstrain osteocytes would initiate a response that would lead to new bone being laid down to stiffen the tissue in the area experiencing above normal strain.  In the default state, when typical loads result in strains of 400 – 1000 microstrain, it is believed that osteocytes inhibit a remodeling response.   Higher magnitude loading which results in strains greater than (2000 – 3200 με) has been shown to cause small cracks in the osteocyte network that appear as soon as 24 h post-loading.  Microdamage in the osteocyte network is thought to disrupt osteocyte to osteocytes communication and fluid flow in the local region.  This microdamage induced disruption of cell communication and fluid flow is thought to trigger bone remodeling, which may be initiated within minutes of excessive loading (4).   Osteocytes in the region of the crack die which then causes the affected osteocytes to stop inhibiting osteoclasts from absorbing bone tissue. This removal of inhibition is accomplished by the osteocytes sending a biochemical signal to the lining cells at the surface of the bone tissue which then initiates a sequence of events that lead to eventual bone remodeling (1, 14). The osteocyte cell death is termed apoptosis, which is cell programmed that causes the affected cells to disintegrate.

You must pass a certain force treshold in order for bone to remodel faster. 

Posted by: Francybe92

An excpert from this article

http://wweb.uta.edu/faculty/ricard/Classes/KINE-3301/Notes/Lesson-15.html

"Bone tissue is remarkably resilient and adaptable.  There is a tendency to think of bone as inert and resistant to change, when in fact bone is very dynamic tissue.  Introductory exercise science students can all readily quote Dr. Julius Wolff and what is commonly known as Wolff’s Law:  “Every change in the function of a bone is followed by certain definite changes in its internal architecture and its external conformation.” (2, 3, 18).  We now understand that bone responds immediately to exercise that causes strains above or below the level expected.  Current evidence suggests that small cracks, microdamage, in the osteocyte network may appear as soon as 24 h post-loading which then cause the osteocytes to initiate an adaptive remodeling response.  Microdamage in the osteocyte network is thought to disrupt osteocyte to osteocytes communication and fluid flow in the local region.  This microdamage induced disruption of cell communication and fluid flow is thought to trigger bone remodeling (1)."

And Again

Osteocytes are thought to be responsible to measure the strains induced in bone and then initiate an osteogenic response if the strains are above or below typical strain ranges of 400 – 1000 microstrain.  In most animals peak functional strains range from less than 1000 microstrain during walking, to 2000 – 3200 microstrain for vigorous activities (6).  It seems that the objective of adaptive remodeling is to maintain the bone cell structural alignment and mineral density such that typical loads produce strains in the range of 400 – 1000 microstrain.  When typical loads result in less than 400 microstrain the osteocytes would initiate a response to cause bone tissue resorption, and when typical loads are consistently greater than 1000 microstrain osteocytes would initiate a response that would lead to new bone being laid down to stiffen the tissue in the area experiencing above normal strain.  In the default state, when typical loads result in strains of 400 – 1000 microstrain, it is believed that osteocytes inhibit a remodeling response.   Higher magnitude loading which results in strains greater than (2000 – 3200 με) has been shown to cause small cracks in the osteocyte network that appear as soon as 24 h post-loading.  Microdamage in the osteocyte network is thought to disrupt osteocyte to osteocytes communication and fluid flow in the local region.  This microdamage induced disruption of cell communication and fluid flow is thought to trigger bone remodeling, which may be initiated within minutes of excessive loading (4).   Osteocytes in the region of the crack die which then causes the affected osteocytes to stop inhibiting osteoclasts from absorbing bone tissue. This removal of inhibition is accomplished by the osteocytes sending a biochemical signal to the lining cells at the surface of the bone tissue which then initiates a sequence of events that lead to eventual bone remodeling (1, 14). The osteocyte cell death is termed apoptosis, which is cell programmed that causes the affected cells to disintegrate.

You must pass a certain force treshold in order for bone to remodel faster. 

 

 

 

Does that mean you'll have to hardmew?

Also are these results or just heavy frauding 

This doesn't mean nothing we are just having a healthy debate.

Regarding the pic you have posted the girl seems to had very good result anyway i don't know under which treatment she went. Onestly The before and after are impressive. To me its seems legit.

But how are you? You seems pretty scared about the way you look. Are you sure you are all right?

Wow i missed that one.

Those are results.

The 2 pictures may haven't been taken whit the exact same angle but you can clear see a reduction in the sclera shown and overall reducing in facial height. Also cheekbones seems to be more prominent, the ogee curve is definitely more pronounced.

Anyone has some information about this girl?

Posted by: Francybe92

This doesn't mean nothing we are just having a healthy debate.

Regarding the pic you have posted the girl seems to had very good result anyway i don't know under which treatment she went. Onestly The before and after are impressive. To me its seems legit.

But how are you? You seems pretty scared about the way you look. Are you sure you are all right?

Are you asking me?

She was wearing biobloc 3 afaik for a year or so. Besides tipping the teeth It moves lower jaw forward through bone resorption mechanism. Its clear that either the biobloc or her tongue posture upswong the maxilla. 

Posted by: Adam

She was wearing biobloc 3 afaik for a year or so. Besides tipping the teeth It moves lower jaw forward through bone resorption mechanism. Its clear that either the biobloc or her tongue posture upswong the maxilla. 

The biobloc 3 doesn't do that, it's just a trainer to keep the mouth closed, her tongue would have had to do that.

I don't see that big of a difference. Her reduction in the sclera show could be a result of forward expansion. It's hard to say how much her ogee curve increased because the previous is in shadow and a small turn in the head can make a big difference.

So we're back to zero. No appreciable results in adults till now.

I've seen so many laughable posts by users claiming to "see" all these changes in their faces, but the few times where a user making all these claims posts a photo, there are literally no changes.

People should take a step back and think for a second. With a device like MSE, where the device is applying direct force to the maxilla, the results are definitely there, but if you look at the study (below), the results in adults are nothing too dramatic. That being the case, what makes you think that, as an adult, the tongue would case noticeable changes, even over the course of two years.

https://www.semortho.com/article/S1073-8746(18)30009-4/pdf

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Adam

She was wearing biobloc 3 afaik for a year or so. Besides tipping the teeth It moves lower jaw forward through bone resorption mechanism. Its clear that either the biobloc or her tongue posture upswong the maxilla. 

The biobloc 3 doesn't do that, it's just a trainer to keep the mouth closed, her tongue would have had to do that.

I don't see that big of a difference. Her reduction in the sclera show could be a result of forward expansion. It's hard to say how much her ogee curve increased because the previous is in shadow and a small turn in the head can make a big difference.

It does that to some degree. Its done by adding acryl to the flanges on each visit which keep the mouth shut. I had that appliance btw but stopped wearing after i learnt to keep my jaws together.
I dont see the point of arguing with you guys tho if i you think that Jamo pictures are a scam. Its just so obvious.. same with the adults cases of dr Mew (not all of them tho). 
I see that denying can be tempting because the work is truly great as the name of the forum states but I would like to urge new members to research the topic more before posting another thread called "mewing doesnt work" or maybe just vent in one thread cause i dont see it adding much to the community.
Have a peaceful holidays

Posted by: JimmyB

I've seen so many laughable posts by users claiming to "see" all these changes in their faces, but the few times where a user making all these claims posts a photo, there are literally no changes.

People should take a step back and think for a second. With a device like MSE, where the device is applying direct force to the maxilla, the results are definitely there, but if you look at the study (below), the results in adults are nothing too dramatic. That being the case, what makes you think that, as an adult, the tongue would case noticeable changes, even over the course of two years.

https://www.semortho.com/article/S1073-8746(18)30009-4/pdf

Astrosky on youtube is a guy who claims to have been mewing for 6 years. And only mewing/ tongue chewing. Also another mewer by the name of gray on youtube just type gray mewing has been mewing for almost 3 years and he talks about his progress

I dont see the point of arguing with you guys tho if i you think that Jamo pictures are a scam. Its just so obvious.. same with the adults cases of dr Mew (not all of them tho). 

I dont' know if Jamo pictures are a scam, however, they cannot be compared. Anyone who thinks the opposite lack's of objectivity. I'm still wondering why he refuse to show us other photos.

I see that denying can be tempting because the work is truly great as the name of the forum states but I would like to urge new members to research the topic more before posting another thread called "mewing doesnt work"

This thread is not called "Mewing doesn't work" Its called "Has anyone seen results?" and till know it's empty despite the high number of views. And aniway, i'm not denying that mewing works, i'm just contesting the claims and proofs brought by some useres on this forum and in general the lack of evidence that it works on adults.

or maybe just vent in one thread cause i dont see it adding much to the community.
Have a peaceful holidays

Instead, state that your chin has grown, your maxilla has rotated from day to night, your cheekbones has widened whitout any proof what add to the comunity? How can we make progress if we are not honest with ourself and with the others? How can we find the best way to proceed if we keep lying?

This thread adds more to the community than many others.

Three years into mewing Gray's progress. At least he doesnt claim he had rotated his maxilla in 4 weeks.

I see that denying can be tempting because the work is truly great as the name of the forum states but I would like to urge new members to research the topic more before posting another thread called "mewing doesnt work" or maybe just vent in one thread cause i dont see it adding much to the community.
Have a peaceful holidays

Deny is tempting? There is a guy in another thread who state that he was able to shorten his maxilla by 1.5 cm… cm… i mean…. 1.5cm of bones disappeared, neither a lefort 1 osteotomy can give you this results.

Plus he grew 3/4 of an inch in height at about at 26/27 yo, his testosterone levels has increased and his testicles have doubled in size…..

Explain me how am i supposed to think he is not a troll? Those are the kind of thred who damege this forum not that one. We just want to know which results are possible which not and how to achieve them.

Deny is tempting… Deny is a must.

Posted by: MeMeMe

These images might just have been frauded but this picture stood out to me. Seems like his eyes improved a little maybe cheekbones got lifted/further forward as a result of maxilla.

But what is mylofuntional therapy really tho?

 

 

 

 

Myofunctional therapy gives extremely aesthetic results.  Recall, though, that those at Honor Franklin work WITH others... including orthodontists.  I <3 Myofunctional therapy done right.  It can be easy to screw up!

Posted by: Francybe92

Three years into mewing Gray's progress. At least he doesnt claim he had rotated his maxilla in 4 weeks.

 

Not 3. He said one year to the day in the video that was posted in . Don't intentionally mislead people.

Posted by: EddieMoney

Posted by: Francybe92

Three years into mewing Gray's progress. At least he doesnt claim he had rotated his maxilla in 4 weeks.

 

Not 3. He said one year to the day in the video that was posted in . Don't intentionally mislead people.

Yeah I'm misleading people… and intentionally… why should I do that intentionally? Anyway, you are right, he is 3 years into mewing and the pic are 1 year apart, my bad. This is what an year of mewing can do, barely move your teeth. Very different from moving the whole maxilla up and forward.. Draw your own conclusion.

Below the link to the video, cause i dont wanna mislead anyone or hide anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ZwRw2m84w&t=2s

Speaking of scamming, if the lighting was purposely done differently in the after picture that would constitute a scam.

Is it not odd that every time someone wants to show us a rotation in the maxilla they use different lighting that favors that particular area? 

Well then I guess I'll never have that healthy compact wide facial shape I once had. At least my face won't get any worse and I expect to see some health benefits too

Posted by: Slinky

Well then I guess I'll never have that healthy compact wide facial shape I once had. At least my face won't get any worse and I expect to see some health benefits too

@Slinky you had a wide face when you where younger?At what age did your face started to change shape? Can you guess why?

https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/a95ge7/6_months_since_i_started_tried_my_best_recreating/

Not sure if lower jaw actually came forward but her jawline is definitely more defined.

Posted by: Francybe92

Posted by: Slinky

Well then I guess I'll never have that healthy compact wide facial shape I once had. At least my face won't get any worse and I expect to see some health benefits too

@Slinky you had a wide face when you where younger?At what age did your face started to change shape? Can you guess why?

Probably around 7-8 yrs old when my face started to change for the worse. I never really was a chronic mouth breather but my tongue wasn't up on my palate so my face dropped down

Posted by: Pame

https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/a95ge7/6_months_since_i_started_tried_my_best_recreating/

 

Not sure if lower jaw actually came forward but her jawline is definitely more defined.

Incomparable.

Half of the face is missing. The jawline appearance can change dramatically just by slightly tilting the head.

Anyway people must understand that you can't change the position and the shape of the bones in just 6 months. Is physiologically impossible.

In most cases 6 months aren't even enough to move your teeth in a correct position with braces, let alone move your bones.

I don't even know if it is possible to change the shape and geometry of the bones at all in adults.

Despite my research, i haven't found a single case where someone was able to change the shape of any of the bones of the human body after growth cessation.

The only places where you can maybe try to achieve some results are along sutures.
If the sutures are closed than you can't move or remodel bones anymore.

In fact, in adults, when using RME a surgical procedure is needed in order to reopen the sutures.

@martinez Even in cases like this  https://www.springfieldsmiledoctor.com/blog/2018/4/30/facial-growth-orthodontics-with-daniel  

where theres been actual measured movement of the maxilla, the results are still quite subtle in most cases. I think if the patient tried his best to replicate the same conditions for before and after pictures and posted them here, people would still be skeptical towards whether any changes actually took place.

Posted by: Pame

@martinez Even in cases like this  https://www.springfieldsmiledoctor.com/blog/2018/4/30/facial-growth-orthodontics-with-daniel  

where theres been actual measured movement of the maxilla, the results are still quite subtle in most cases. I think if the patient tried his best to replicate the same conditions for before and after pictures and posted them here, people would still be skeptical towards whether any changes actually took place.

Changes if there were any, are so subtle that i really struggle to perceive them. Can't tell if something has really changed or not. Most users here are expecting and claming results like this:

There is no need to guess or overlay the two pics to see if her maxilla has moved forward or not.

Posted by: Pame

@martinez Even in cases like this  https://www.springfieldsmiledoctor.com/blog/2018/4/30/facial-growth-orthodontics-with-daniel  

where theres been actual measured movement of the maxilla, the results are still quite subtle in most cases. I think if the patient tried his best to replicate the same conditions for before and after pictures and posted them here, people would still be skeptical towards whether any changes actually took place.

I agree, most changes in the maxilla are going to look small. That's why most forum users were not excited by FAGGA because they are in it for the "model" looks. The looks claiming power promoted on his dream making blog. Otherwise from a health perspective the expansion made by FAGGA is impressive. 

Posted by: Martinez

Changes if there were any, are so subtle that i really struggle to perceive them. Can't tell if something has really changed or not. Most users here are expecting and claming results like this:

There is no need to guess or overlay the two pics to see if her maxilla has moved forward or not.

I see quite a change in this example, though the change in angle doesn't help, neither does the make up. I think they probably took several pictures and posted the one that shows the most recession in the before and shows the most expansion in the after.

What is the story behind this picture?

Posted by: Martinez

And to be clear, the new bone formation and the bone remodeling occur every time there is an injury to the bones. For example, when a tooth is extracted, the hole that is formed is filled with new bone, this process is called bone formation and bone remodeling, very different from what is understood in this forum where it is thought that an entire area of the face is completely remodeled according to their fantasies.

Actually, when teeth are extracted bone is lost. The body removes the bone around where the extracted teeth roots were because it determines its not needed anymore. But your point is clear though I don't think the theory Dr. Mike Mew advances about bone remolding is completely a fantasy. There is some good logic behind it.

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Martinez

Changes if there were any, are so subtle that i really struggle to perceive them. Can't tell if something has really changed or not. Most users here are expecting and claming results like this:

There is no need to guess or overlay the two pics to see if her maxilla has moved forward or not.

I see quite a change in this example, though the change in angle doesn't help, neither does the make up. I think they probably took several pictures and posted the one that shows the most recession in the before and shows the most expansion in the after.

What is the story behind this picture?

She had maxillary advancement surgery. I think thats the way to go tbh. The changes are so undeniable and dramatic that any difference in lighting and angle etc is irrelevant imo. Looks like a different person altogether. She basically went from ugly to attractive. 

Heres another example:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHtRkp8EGM

Posted by: Pame

She had maxillary advancement surgery. I think thats the way to go tbh. The changes are so undeniable and dramatic that any difference in lighting and angle etc is irrelevant imo. Looks like a different person altogether. She basically went from ugly to attractive. 

 

Heres another example:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHtRkp8EGM

The difference is undoubtedly clear, but trust me angles, lighting, and make up play a role. Also as seen in the video link some patients are having additional work on their soft tissue such as the nose. This does make a big difference as well.  

Very late to the party, but regarding casts -- Having taken numerous impressions and casts over a year, I have had very very minute changes in my teeth. But getting consistent impressions isn't as easy as you'd think. I have seen .5-1.0 mm changes in progress and regression throughout my casting experimentation. Whether that's due to actual changes, or maybe I shifted too much during the curing process of the impression taking, I'm not sure. Even with a caliper, and attempting to measure at the exact same spot, if you're off by even .1 mm it can affect the measurement.

So until I get 3mm (if I ever do) of clear expansion, I'm going to say I haven't expanded.

As far as actual evidence and bone-related changes, the answer is no, and you could stop reading here.

BUT to answer the question of simple results, I believe I have, and the changes have made me committed to continuing, even if they would disappoint others looking for more dramatic gains. No pictures that I'll share online, so you can take or leave that. This is just to add another perspective, as I think people can get disheartened by the thought of no dramatic changes. But the little things add up, and people have taken notice.

Compared to plastic surgery, or younger oral posture adjustment, they are VERY subtle, with next to no forward growth, and any progress photos I've taken could easily be dismissed as a changing of the light or angle. Even a fraction of a change of tilt or turn of the head can make a huge difference in the way the profile looks.

At its very basic, though, the muscles on my face have adjusted and continue to alter to my new bite and posture. The simple act of keeping my teeth lightly closed together has completely changed the lower half of my face, and had a cascading effect on how my muscles have performed. My cheeks appear higher and fuller and the S-curve is more significant, my jawline is tighter, my hyoid bone is higher from the posterior third of my tongue being up, which has changed the tightness of my neck. The puffiness under my eyes when I smile has evened out, when one eye had a bulge that was almost twice as big as the other and even showed when not smiling.

Coming from a class II malocclusion, my bite feels completely different and continues to change. My lower incisors press against my upper teeth now, when before there was a 1-2mm space between them. My mandible clearly looks like it has moved forward -- but that's not due to forward growth -- it's simply the immediate change in bite, and then the gradual change in muscle. My lips have a different shape, with my upper lip more plump than it used to be, and that's very clear even in candid photos.

So is it growth? Most likely not, and I'll never claim to have proof. But it is general improvement. At 33, my lower jaw looks very different than it looked at 31, but I still look like me in general.

I don't expect to look like a completely different person, or reach my full skull-development potential. But improvement is improvement, and I'd rather look like I do today, than when I was 31.

And this isn't even getting into the health benefits.

Posted by: Pame

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Martinez

Changes if there were any, are so subtle that i really struggle to perceive them. Can't tell if something has really changed or not. Most users here are expecting and claming results like this:

There is no need to guess or overlay the two pics to see if her maxilla has moved forward or not.

I see quite a change in this example, though the change in angle doesn't help, neither does the make up. I think they probably took several pictures and posted the one that shows the most recession in the before and shows the most expansion in the after.

What is the story behind this picture?

She had maxillary advancement surgery. I think thats the way to go tbh. The changes are so undeniable and dramatic that any difference in lighting and angle etc is irrelevant imo. Looks like a different person altogether. She basically went from ugly to attractive. 

 

Heres another example:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHtRkp8EGM

I really wish we could see two accurate photos of the change in this woman though. There is a very obvious difference in the rotation of her head between the two photos. That being said, I think the change in the slope of her cheek is undeniable and she's a fantastic example of how important maxilla placement is - just a little advancement can mean the difference between the retruded look and the forward grown look. A healthy cheek slope angle, with the eye set further back from the nose, is absolutely an aesthetic powerhouse and she's got it. I don't think there's any way the "before" photo would look anywhere near as good as the "after" photo even if you  rotated her head to match exactly.

Posted by: Sclera

Very late to the party, but..................

I second everything she is saying and confirm after seeing her pictures few months ago that most of those changes are real.

Posted by: Sclera

Very late to the party, but regarding casts…..

Am i correct?

Posted by: darkindigo

Myofunctional therapy gives extremely aesthetic results. Recall, though, that those at Honor Franklin work WITH others... including orthodontists. I <3 Myofunctional therapy done right. It can be easy to screw up!

@darkindigo, Since you are on a tirade against "mewing" but advocate myofunctional therapy, in your mind, what is the difference between the oral posture advocated by Myofunctional therapists and Dr. Mew?

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Sclera

Very late to the party, but..................

I second everything she is saying and confirm after seeing her pictures few months ago that most of those changes are real

Thanks @Abdulrahman your opinion really matter to me.

Posted by: Martinez

Thanks @Abdulrahman your opinion really matter to me.

You are most welcome.

Now if only we can have one person show us impressions results that their teeth moved and alveolar ridge remodeled only from mewing that would be the icing on the cake.

Posted by: AlphaMinus

Posted by: Pame

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Martinez

Changes if there were any, are so subtle that i really struggle to perceive them. Can't tell if something has really changed or not. Most users here are expecting and claming results like this:

There is no need to guess or overlay the two pics to see if her maxilla has moved forward or not.

I see quite a change in this example, though the change in angle doesn't help, neither does the make up. I think they probably took several pictures and posted the one that shows the most recession in the before and shows the most expansion in the after.

What is the story behind this picture?

She had maxillary advancement surgery. I think thats the way to go tbh. The changes are so undeniable and dramatic that any difference in lighting and angle etc is irrelevant imo. Looks like a different person altogether. She basically went from ugly to attractive. 

 

Heres another example:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHtRkp8EGM

I really wish we could see two accurate photos of the change in this woman though. There is a very obvious difference in the rotation of her head between the two photos. 

To be honest despite  my attempts to overlay the two images I wasn't abel to get any acceptable results.

Slightly tilting the head  or even just moving the camera causes enormous changes.

I wasnt even able to align the forehead wich changed shape with the change of the frame.

I begin to doubt that using photos is the best way to see small changes.

@martinez  There are results.  The problem is that either they don't have CBCT overlay of images or you can't really see changes because the teeth don't look right to begin.  If tou start with someone like myself with perfect teeth and baseline CBCT.. I can show you that there are changes. LOL  It's like braces... adults can get them.  Apply pressure to teeth and they move.  Apply pressure to the palate and it moves the arch wider apart.  Whether that's just teeth movibg or palate 2 is yet to be determined.  But applying pressure does make changes.

Posted by: Martinez

Posted by: Sclera

Very late to the party, but regarding casts…..

Am i correct?

 

 

@martinez, are you correct in what way? Apologies, I'm not understanding the exact question, and want to make sure I'm able to answer within context.

Posted by: Sclera

Posted by: Martinez

Posted by: Sclera

Very late to the party, but regarding casts…..

Am i correct?

 

 

@martinez, are you correct in what way? Apologies, I'm not understanding the exact question, and want to make sure I'm able to answer within context.

Sorry for the delayed reply

I just realized that in my previous post i have accidentally deleted the whole sentence.

From what i understand the results you claim are just limited to the soft tissue and you haven't experienced any skeletal changes/bone remodeling.

Am I correct?

@martinez, you are correct that what I'm confident in claiming is soft tissue improvement from proper oral posture, and tongue strength that improves my mandible placement.

Now, I do believe that other changes have occurred to my skull due to endonasal release, chiropractic work and other various techniques, along with oral posture. Despite how diligent I am in my photo progress log, the before and after photos I have aren't perfect enough that if anyone wanted to, they could probably choose a reasonable explanation for the differences.

My main point is, though, whether or not the skull changes are perceived or real, the musculature improvements alone are enough for me to continue oral posture.

Maybe a bit out of topic, but interesting.

Posted by: Francybe92

I think that if the history of bone remodeling were true (at least as we understand it on this forum) they would have avoided cutting this poor girl's legs.

Hmm, well, there is someone who is trying:

"Sarah Brown, the creator of the program explained the natural ways to return the Bow-Legs (Varus Alignment or O-shaped curvature) or Knock-Knees (Valgus Alignment or X-shaped curvature) to their natural shape and strength.

The main content of the book are the exercises that strengthen muscles to pull your knees back into place. This exercise is mainly aimed at strengthening the muscles around your knees; it will reduce the strain around your tendons and joints and will help you to straighten your bowed legs."

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42185514-bow-legs-no-more

So, i dont know if that works (probably affects more the legs posture).

As for bone remodeling, some professionals are also aware, not just Mike:

"Everybody thinks, 'Oh, your face is your face.' But you know, I see a lot of people that have these long-face syndromes from sleeping on their sides or stomach, mouth-breathing, and resting their tongue in the wrong place. You change that and there are little cells called osteoblasts and osteoclasts. They break down and build up, break down and build up, and within a very short time – months – the whole shape of their face changes." 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/04/07/amp/orofacial-myofunctional-therapy.aspx

That was in an interview with the myofunctional therapist, Joy Moeller, who has at least 30 years of experience.

Mind you, she knows that is limited by genetics (as seen in Mike Mew's interview with her). And I admit that a change in months sounds more exagerated than what Mike says, but that doesnt mean it cant happen (overtime).

Posted by: Ayla31

Posted by: Francybe92

I think that if the history of bone remodeling were true (at least as we understand it on this forum) they would have avoided cutting this poor girl's legs.

Hmm, well, there is someone who is trying:

"Sarah Brown, the creator of the program explained the natural ways to return the Bow-Legs (Varus Alignment or O-shaped curvature) or Knock-Knees (Valgus Alignment or X-shaped curvature) to their natural shape and strength.

Yes and for 47$ discounted 23.... don't wanna be sarcastic but...

Anyway i have already researched on the bow legs correction and seems that all methods are just a scam.
it seems impossible that despite all researchers, students, professors, universities and doctors scattered all over the world, no one has ever realized that it is possible to change the shape of the bones.

I don't know guys…..

@sclera Thank you for sharing, very interesting insight.  I think this begs the question - how much of perceived attractiveness/health is a result of soft tissue positioning, rather than bone positioning?  Certain things like maxilla positioning are probably undeniably bone positioning.  But maybe the rest is up for debate? 

Posted by: Francybe92

 

This doesn't mean notting but, I just want to point out that there are hundreds of diseases in which it would be useful to apply the theory of bone remodeling but if no one has never applied it, probably it is not possible.

What is the cause of this leg problem, is it bone, nerve damage, or a muscle dependency in the first place?

There is tremendous amount of theoretical research on craniofacial dystrophy and it's causes. The connection between the oral muscles and facial bones is well established.

Dr. Mike Mew makes a great 1 hour presentation in which he explains all of this. It's his most impressive work and it is the base on which he builds his other wild claims.

Now given the unique nature of the tongue its not far fetched to think that it can influence the face in ways other muscles can't.

Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@sclera Thank you for sharing, very interesting insight.  I think this begs the question - how much of perceived attractiveness/health is a result of soft tissue positioning, rather than bone positioning?  Certain things like maxilla positioning are probably undeniably bone positioning.  But maybe the rest is up for debate? 

@drunkwithcoffee, I can't say how much, but I do think that soft tissue improvements can be underrated on this forum, both in physical performance and in aesthetics. Someone with great bone structure looks even better with great soft tissue. As someone with less than ideal bone structure but improved soft tissue, I look much better than I used to (but again, my lower jaw has changed dramatically due to the new placement of my mandible, and I have had skull manipulation and endonasal release. This can't be ignored in my own case). But this is not a magical mask that makes someone look completely different.

Anectdote, though:

A few months ago, I had been alarmed that in changes to my nose from endonasal release my mouth didn't lift with it, so my filtrum looked extra long, and threw off the balance of the lower half of my face. The space between my nose and lips was now the same height as my chin, and it looked strange to me. Recently, my upper lip naturally puffed up in a way that when I measured with a caliper, my filtrum is now less than the height of my chin. Not by much, only a couple mm, but the ratio has made enough of a difference. I don't believe my mouth has moved, only the change of the height of my upper lip. That one miniscule improvement had a cascading effect on the proportions of my face.

I want to be clear, though, that "attractiveness" is not the same thing as "beauty", and I think it's really important to separate the two. This is not some delusional fluff to make someone feel better. Attraction is extremely subjective and complex, and I feel like some people on this forum can feel like they won't be attractive until they reach their full development potential, which is absolutely not my own experience.

The aesthetic/attraction points for me since oral and body posture work, and none of these truly quantifiable:

• People guess my age as even younger than they used to, closer to 10 years younger now. At 28-29, people were categorizing my age correctly. Before, it was a consistent 5 years younger. In a year of oral and body posture, it seems I reversed the degeneration that began, and even improved it.
• I've been hit on by strangers more in the last year than in 5 combined.
• I'll catch a glimpse in the mirror, and be startled at how much I appreciate the way I look.
• I look a lot better in candid photos than before.
• I actually like the way I look in selfies, not just accept it, and this is me being my own worst critic. This one is important, as after a period of time I can look back and say, "Oh, hey, Sclera, what were you thinking? This is a great photo." But when I look at photos of the meltiest period of my life I still think, "Oh dear God, what happened?" and as the months go by, I almost don't recognize myself in those photos.
• My partner has even commented on the changes, in the kindest and most diplomatic way possible. But after pulling it out of him, he has confirmed that I look better than when we first started dating, and he thinks it's because of the oral posture. He is one of the most measured and skeptical people I know.

Now, is part of this due to my own changed perception and confidence? Possibly placebo? You bet it could be, which is why I only give my own opinion on the matter. I don't know the truth, I only know my own experience.

I can't tell you if my health benefits are a direct result of soft tissue change, but since body and oral posture work, these are the health results I've experienced:

• TMJD improvement
• Fewer headaches
• Better breathing
• Can pop my ears now when yawning.
• Falling sick less often - but I think this has a lot to do with the diminishment of constant stress.
• Improved physical endurance
• Improved singing and vocal cord protection

But I don't think we should ignore the subconscious cues we give people with back straight, good posture, mouth closed, breathing through the nose compared to terrible posture, mouth open and breathing through it. There's still a primal part of us that scans the world for health and illness, and health = beauty for a lot of us, whether we realize it or not.

https://imgur.com/a/1nFeYrQ

Hard to compare the two pics but it really does look like his overbite improved drastically which he also confirmed.

@sclera What do you attribute the changes in upper lip form to? Just keeping mouth closed?

@Sclera all your disclaimers are well said.  I think at the end of the day what most of us are ultimately after is greater self confidence.  If mewing can make as drastic of a change as you've reported without necessarily having to reposition bone (thereby possibly making it a more attainable goal for the majority of people), it's worth the effort 100x over.

Due to lack of skeletal results we are lowering the bar. Pretty sad actually.

If you want to achieve some soft tissue results you can always go to the gym or practice some face exercises.

Mewing is intended to achieve skeletal results as claimed by Mike Mew and as intended by any other people on this forum.

Years of mewing 2000 views on this thread still 0 result. This is the truth, the rest is smoke and mirror.

From The Fox and the Grapes

"Pleasures are dear and difficult to get.
 Feasting the eye, fat grapes hung in the arbour,
 That the fox could not reach, for all his labour,
 And leaving them declared, they're not ripe yet."

@Francybe92 There's no lowering of the bar going on, only trying to understand what is actually going on.  People have seen drastic results.  "Mewing" works.  But is it repositioning bone or soft tissue changes?  That's what we're trying to get to the bottom of.

At the end of the day does it matter which one is the truth? Unless you're in it for purely health reasons, the important thing is that change is possible, whether that's through bone or tissue.

Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@Francybe92 There's no lowering of the bar going on, only trying to understand what is actually going on.  People have seen drastic results. 

People have seen drastic results also whit subliminal messages, they have seen drastic healt result by eating 1 apple per day. People also belive that the earth is flat and that alien exist. People think that you can cure diseases with homeopathy… the list can go on and on….

Mewing is born to change the way your bones grow not to change how your soft tissues looks. For that there are the so called "facial exercises" that are more complete and effective. Even proper nutrition and staying lean can give you a better look but this has nothing to do with mewing.

Here we are talking about expanding the palate and moving the whole maxilla up and forward.

If you feel better, more confident, and more attractive because you have a good oral/body posture good for you (really) but when we talk about results here, we mean skeletal results something that for now no one was able to achieve (as far as i know).

Those are result:

This and Others are not

Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

"Mewing" works.  But is it repositioning bone or soft tissue changes?  That's what we're trying to get to the bottom of.

It makes sense to me that there are also bone changes at play (put more noticeable through the years), since it is also living tissue and bone remodelling happens all the time (and also responds to mechanical loading).

I found this on skull growth on adults:

http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/article/cranium-changes

An excerpt:

"Since most bones in the body stop growing after puberty, experts assumed the human skull stopped growing then too. But using CT scans of 100 men and women, the researchers discovered that the bones in the human skull continue to grow as people age. The forehead moves forward while the cheek bones move backward. As the bones move, the overlying muscle and skin also move, subtly changing the shape of the face."

I wonder what oral posture did these people have and if this growth would be different had they changed their rest position. I wonder also, if it was the other way around, that, as overlying muscle and skin moved (in case there was a lack of support), bone followed. 

If there where studies like this on a larger scale, comparing before and after oral/body posture change, it would be awesome. Preferable after Myofunctional therapy, since it so easy to make mistakes or take a lot more time doing it alone.

Anyway, I agree with you that at the end of the day it's a positive change that allows use to live healthier lives.

And here we are again.
Whenever a thread like this is opened, because of the lacks of objective results, we always ends up proclaiming subjective beneficial health result that are impossible to be verified or demonstrated.

I repeat: Has anyone seen (skeletal) results?

To be more precise:

Was anyone able to expand their palate and/or move the whole maxilla up and forward just by mewing?

Posted by: Francybe92

 

This and Others are not

 

Can you elaborate on why you view this as an unacceptable comparison? I tried to align the points located at her ears and ramus. To me, the difference in her face is far greater than what such small difference in camera angle could possibly create:

Posted by: Francybe92

And here we are again.
Whenever a thread like this is opened, because of the lacks of objective results, we always ends up proclaiming subjective beneficial health result that are impossible to be verified or demonstrated.

I repeat: Has anyone seen (skeletal) results?

To be more precise:

Was anyone able to expand their palate and/or move the whole maxilla up and forward just by mewing?

What would you view as a sufficient proof of results? I can post anterior view of my teeth in an attempt to highlight what ~10 mm of expansion from mewing looks like. I warn you, it's not a pretty sight, and it's only a photo. I will only do this if such picture has any chance of being sufficient to you in the first place, otherwise what's the difference?

@Francybe92 fair enough.  I suppose we have slightly different goals.  For me, greater self confidence is the end-all-be-all.  Would I be ecstatic if bone remodeling occurred? Absolutely.  But if soft tissue changes brought about by mewing (which by the way are very different from those that occur with facial exercises that I've seen) are alone sufficient to achieve this goal, I'd find great satisfaction in that as well.

To me, the anecdotal evidence of increased self confidence reported by members here are encouraging.  Of course they're not conclusive proof of anything, but they point to the fact that something is going on that's worth paying attention to.

Sorry, cant see any difference. Same person with the head tilted slightly on one side (away from the camera).

From the front is even more obvious that absolutely nothing has changed.

As already said, when something moves even slightly, there is not need to guess if something has changed or not. No matter the lighting, the head tilting  or the change in angle...

This is the difference betwen scheletal movment and immaginary skeletal movment.

When you (all) are in doubt come back to this thread and look at the difference.

@francybe92 Well, you are free to maintain your stance. I don't see any avenue for further discussion in this regard.

Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@Francybe92 fair enough.  I suppose we have slightly different goals.  For me, greater self confidence is the end-all-be-all.  Would I be ecstatic if bone remodeling occurred? Absolutely.  But if soft tissue changes brought about by mewing (which by the way are very different from those that occur with facial exercises that I've seen) are alone sufficient to achieve this goal, I'd find great satisfaction in that as well.

To me, the anecdotal evidence of increased self confidence reported by members here are encouraging.  Of course they're not conclusive proof of anything, but they point to the fact that something is going on that's worth paying attention to.

Really, if you are happy with your results good for you. I'm happy with my results (none actually). I feel much better physically and mentally with my new oral/body posture and it's a shame that this is still a niche knowledge. Personally i'll mew till the end of my life whether there will be results or not. But again, sadly till now, i cant say that mewing works in adults due to the lack of proof.

And again this thread is called "has anyone seen (skeletal) result?"
Not "Are you happy with mewing" "Do you feel better when Mewing" "Do Mewing effected your soft tissue too?" We can open a new thread for that.

Posted by: Progress

@francybe92 Well, you are free to maintain your stance. I don't see any avenue for further discussion in this regard.

I Understand @Progress, we ave a copmletly different point of view. I cannot see how you can spot any difference in those before/after and you are probably wondering how i can't see the difference.

Its worthwhile even if your "results" are just preventing or slowing further skeletal deterioration with age.

Posted by: Apollo

Its worthwhile even if your "results" are just preventing or slowing further skeletal deterioration with age.

100% Yes and i strongly belive in that. I strongly belive in mewing in general.

Now i'm reaserching if it is possible or not to change the shape  and position of any of the bones of the human body in adulthood.

Till now i found only this practice that have something in common with Mewing (constant force over long period of time)

Posted by: Progress

Can you elaborate on why you view this as an unacceptable comparison? I tried to align the points located at her ears and ramus. To me, the difference in her face is far greater than what such small difference in camera angle could possibly create:

This women appears to be rotating her head inward (chin tucking) in the before picture and outward in the after picture. A classic trick to make the face look more forward.

To confirm this, does anyone have her before and after pictures without all the dots and lines she added?

Edit: never mind my request, I found the before and after. 

https://thehumanunderground.wordpress.com/2016/07/17/what-makes-a-face-attractive-its-all-in-the-tongue/

@Progress @Abdulrahman those pics are from this blog:  https://thehumanunderground.wordpress.com/2016/07/17/what-makes-a-face-attractive-its-all-in-the-tongue/

They were taken over the course of several years.  I agree the head positions aren't the same, but I highly doubt she was intentionally implementing tricks.

Posted by: Francybe92

Posted by: Progress

@francybe92 Well, you are free to maintain your stance. I don't see any avenue for further discussion in this regard.

I Understand @Progress, we ave a copmletly different point of view. I cannot see how you can spot any difference in those before/after and you are probably wondering how i can't see the difference.

It's hard to be constructive when the points of view are so distant.

At least we are in agreement with that, ha. I hope you will eventually get what you want. I think I'm nearing a point where the changes are becoming significant enough to start appearing in pics. The question is, how to align the pictures in a way that gives the strongest and most honest demonstration of these changes? I used to align ears, then ears and eyes. I don't know if there is a better way to do it, since everything in the cranium is subject to change. The whole dynamic of the skull is changing. If it was only maxilla that changed, it would be easy to superimpose the pics. This is basically the closest I can get to with my way of taking pics:

It's not very satisfying.

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Progress

Can you elaborate on why you view this as an unacceptable comparison? I tried to align the points located at her ears and ramus. To me, the difference in her face is far greater than what such small difference in camera angle could possibly create:

This women appears to be rotating her head inward (chin tucking) in the before picture and outward in the after picture. A classic trick to make the face look more forward.

To confirm this, does anyone have her before and after pictures without all the dots and lines she added?

Edit: never mind my request, I found the before and after. 

 

What's your view on the extent to which her chin moves away from her ears? By rotating the head upward, the ears rotate with the head. The forementioned realtionship should not change, should it?

Posted by: Francybe92

Now i'm reaserching if it is possible or not to change the shape  and position of any of the bones of the human body in adulthood.

Till now i found only this practice that have something in common with Mewing (constant force over long period of time)

Do you think it's relevant with Mewing or am i out of track?

 

I think the facial bones have different bone matrix than the rest of the skeleton. The bones are more porous, and thus more receptive.

@francybe92 - You're better off looking at the effects of modern-day corset wearers, who are usually adult women who begin wearing corsets once their bones have fully developed. Women in the mid-1800s with steel-boned corsets began training as children, which had an effect on bone growth. Even reed and whale boning of the 1500s to early 1800s had an effect, though not as severe. A lot of those old diagrams were exaggerated propaganda from moralists, but I've seen Victorian-era skeletons with similar results.

My understanding is for modern day women, tight-lacing and waist training has an effect on soft tissue, can temporarily squeeze the ribs, and can bruise and crack ribs at the extreme, over time atrophies muscles to the point of losing necessary core strength, but doesn't alter their form as the Victorian examples do.

Some corrective braces for adult scoliosis patients are used to aid soft tissue (there it is again!) in manipulating the spine to align more properly and assist the muscles themselves in maintaining corrections. Results are across the board for that, as so many factors go into an individual case, including severity of the dysfunction, and consistency and diligence of form from the patient.

But I feel like me chiming in about my soft tissue results created a bit of a stir, and I want to address a couple things.

As far as I'm aware, "mewing" is just another way to say "oral posture". The point of adult-beginning oral posture is not to move the maxilla forward or to stimulate remodeling. It might be one point, it might be the only point for many, but it's not the only-point-end-of-story. The foundation of oral posture is simply to maintain proper positioning of the tongue, lips, and teeth. And even if maxillary growth is the only point of mewing, it's not the only point of this forum.

The subject of the post was "Has anyone seen results?", and from the original post it seemed broad enough for my own experience to be a valid contribution. I have seen results from oral posture. Whether those results were what people wanted, they're still simple results. The very simple act as a class ii of improving my overjet affects the placement of the mandible, which falls in line with your discussion of the positioning of bone. Is that placement due to muscle? Yes, but it's still a result.

I am definitely guilty of not providing photographic evidence to support my soft tissue claims, and I'm not going to defend that.

That said, I think it's interesting that Progress offered to post further photographs, but the offer went unacknowledged.

Thanks for the replies.

I first rotated the after picture to match the before at the A point. That's the point right under the nose that is used in cephalometric and photometric analysis to determine the forward position of the upper jaw. Notice how the nose matched in both pictures so do many other features. 

Also, notice how the neck changes so much it's as if she was chin tucking in the before.

Now I plotted a little angle to check the forward growth. This angle is inspired by the cephlometic SNA measurment with the only difference is we have no access to the sella (S) point without an x-ray so I substitute it with the Tragus of the ear.

Both angles are the same. This person had no forward growth in her upper jaw and her lower jaw doesn't appear to have changed either. Look back above at the lips and how they did not change relation. It's all head rotation to make the face, especially the lower jaw, look more forward.

She is pushing her head back and in as if doing a chin tuck in the before and then doing the complete opposite in the after.

Posted by: Progress

At least we are in agreement with that, ha. I hope you will eventually get what you want. I think I'm nearing a point where the changes are becoming significant enough to start appearing in pics. The question is, how to align the pictures in a way that gives the strongest and most honest demonstration of these changes? I used to align ears, then ears and eyes. I don't know if there is a better way to do it, since everything in the cranium is subject to change. The whole dynamic of the skull is changing. If it was only maxilla that changed, it would be easy to superimpose the pics. This is basically the closest I can get to with my way of taking pics:

It's not very satisfying.

I see better consistency in lighting here. Can you please post the still pictures?

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Progress

At least we are in agreement with that, ha. I hope you will eventually get what you want. I think I'm nearing a point where the changes are becoming significant enough to start appearing in pics. The question is, how to align the pictures in a way that gives the strongest and most honest demonstration of these changes? I used to align ears, then ears and eyes. I don't know if there is a better way to do it, since everything in the cranium is subject to change. The whole dynamic of the skull is changing. If it was only maxilla that changed, it would be easy to superimpose the pics. This is basically the closest I can get to with my way of taking pics:

It's not very satisfying.

I see better consistency in lighting here. Can you please post the still pictures?

https://imgur.com/a/kNbcLNH  

You may notice how my head is located at slightly different parts of the shot. This also seems to affect the facial proportions in unpredictable ways. 

Posted by: Progress

https://imgur.com/a/kNbcLNH  

You may notice how my head is located at slightly different parts of the shot. This also seems to affect the facial proportions in unpredictable ways. 

I see what you are doing, you are using the phone flash for lighting. That's at least giving consistent light but the direction of the light is unnecessarily making your under eye support flatter.

Well, I ran the angles and you are not going to like this, you came out more recessed in the after. The before was 86° while the after was 83°. Now obviously this is not a real change, just due to change of picture angle.

This underscores the importance of consistency in taking pictures. consider getting a basic tripod with a built in phone mount. It will make your picture so much more consistent.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SHXQ9YS/ref=psdc_499310_t3_B014PPC7JM

Or better get this 60" tripod and add to it a separate phone mount so you can have the extra height. It's best to have the phone at the same level as your head.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005KP473Q/ref=psdc_499310_t2_B014PPC7JM

https://www.amazon.com/DaVoice-Compatible-Adjustable-Smartphone-Attachment/dp/B00OS9E6AO

what about achilles results? looks like pretty convincing upswing of the mandible to me. Am i missing something?

https://imgur.com/KL68xrr

https://imgur.com/7apAape

To me Progress doesn't look more recessed in the after shot. His midface and nose become shorter as if his face lifted up. His lips coming back still makes it look like his maxilla went upwards which is what shortens the face.

If you look carefully you can literally see his Mew line decrease as the distance from the upper lip to nose gets shorter. 

Posted by: EddieMoney

To me Progress doesn't look more recessed in the after shot. His midface and nose become shorter as if his face lifted up. His lips coming back still makes it look like his maxilla went upwards which is what shortens the face.

If you look carefully you can literally see his Mew line decrease as the distance from the upper lip to nose gets shorter. 

Progress face looks like it's moving back in the after picture. Look at the gif he posted, his lips and nose move back. Facial growth doesn't just go up as you are suggesting you are seeing in the picture, it also goes forward. I think he just took a picture in an awkward position and it made him look recessed when in reality he did not change, except for the beard of course.

I aligned Progress ears, since I think it's better to compare the pictures that way (I didn't resize). They are still not in the exact same place, but at least it doesn't look like he is recessing.

I hope it's okay.

I also have the feeling that the after picture is slightly smaller than the before one. But I could be wrong.

Posted by: mewchew

what about achilles results? looks like pretty convincing upswing of the mandible to me. Am i missing something?

https://imgur.com/KL68xrr

https://imgur.com/7apAape

Apart from the fact that both photos are taken in completely different lighting with different poses (not to mention the beard growth) and are therefore completely and utterly unscientific, it also looks to me like he's jutting his mandible in the after photo.  He's also lifting his head to compensate for a high gonial angle. When you have a high gonial angle, jutting the mandible results in a significant increase in vertical chin height, and that seems to be the case here. 

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: EddieMoney

To me Progress doesn't look more recessed in the after shot. His midface and nose become shorter as if his face lifted up. His lips coming back still makes it look like his maxilla went upwards which is what shortens the face.

If you look carefully you can literally see his Mew line decrease as the distance from the upper lip to nose gets shorter. 

Progress face looks like it's moving back in the after picture. Look at the gif he posted, his lips and nose move back. Facial growth doesn't just go up as you are suggesting you are seeing in the picture, it also goes forward. I think he just took a picture in an awkward position and it made him look recessed when in reality he did not change, except for the beard of course.

In someone with more bimax style symptoms, the face wouldn't go forward when the maxilla goes up but rather further back. Either way, the Mew indicator line would decrease but by a different mechanism (up and back vs up and forward ). Looking by his before shot, you can see how he had an elongated "muzzle" like face but now the face has gotten shorter as his maxilla and whole skull moved upward. 

It's exactly as he described in the thread about expansion = recession . When the face lifts up the maxilla does come back but because it moves up his Mew indicator line actually shortened. In other words he was recessed but it seems his face fell down and forward simultaneously . Just like bimax symptoms.

Posted by: AlphaMinus

Posted by: mewchew

what about achilles results? looks like pretty convincing upswing of the mandible to me. Am i missing something?

https://imgur.com/KL68xrr

https://imgur.com/7apAape

Apart from the fact that both photos are taken in completely different lighting with different poses (not to mention the beard growth) and are therefore completely and utterly unscientific, it also looks to me like he's jutting his mandible in the after photo.  He's also lifting his head to compensate for a high gonial angle. When you have a high gonial angle, jutting the mandible results in a significant increase in vertical chin height, and that seems to be the case here. 

Yes I concede that the before and after photos arent perfect in terms of lighting,. However I dont think he is jutting in the before pic (the one with a beard). When i jut my jaw out my lip allignment changes so that the bottom lip is forward of the top lip. His pictures seem to maintain the same lip alignment. 

Posted by: AlphaMinus

Posted by: mewchew

what about achilles results? looks like pretty convincing upswing of the mandible to me. Am i missing something?

https://imgur.com/KL68xrr

https://imgur.com/7apAape

Apart from the fact that both photos are taken in completely different lighting with different poses (not to mention the beard growth) and are therefore completely and utterly unscientific, it also looks to me like he's jutting his mandible in the after photo.  He's also lifting his head to compensate for a high gonial angle. When you have a high gonial angle, jutting the mandible results in a significant increase in vertical chin height, and that seems to be the case here. 

The bearded picture where it seems like he is jutting his mandible forward is actually the before picture. To me it seems like his face is changing in similar way as mine is, with the jaws giving the illusion of having moved up and back instead of up and forward. For both of us, the base/underside of the nose is tilting to a more horizontal angle, which should imply that the maxilla is getting closer to the height it's meant to reside at.

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Posted by: Progress

https://imgur.com/a/kNbcLNH  

You may notice how my head is located at slightly different parts of the shot. This also seems to affect the facial proportions in unpredictable ways. 

Well, I ran the angles and you are not going to like this, you came out more recessed in the after. The before was 86° while the after was 83°. Now obviously this is not a real change, just due to change of picture angle. 

I can see why you'd think that, but I don't agree with the terminology you use. It's not recession as defined in the context of craniofacial dystrophy. Here the face is kind of drawn towards the eyes in a concave-like manner, with both above-eye and under-eye support increasing. The face gets more compact. This compression means that some parts of the face are, inevitably, going to appear as if they were receding in relation to the rest of the skull. In addition, @SUGR1 was of the opinion that many people with downgrown faces are in a situation that could be considered a form of bimaxillary protrusion. If this is the case for me, then the backward movement of the jaws isn't be that surprising.

Note that the angles and markers you use are largely arbitrary, with most of their utility being intended for quantifying the results of surgical operations. The proportional consequences of fixing CFD through the body's own mechanisms are far more complex and unknown than those of surgically moving the maxilla up and forward. I hope you understand that the methods you use to measure changes are not really intended to quantify the kind of process we are undergoing. When the dynamics of the whole cranium are changing, a couple of angles will not convey much of useful information.

Posted by: EddieMoney

In someone with more bimax style symptoms, the face wouldn't go forward when the maxilla goes up but rather further back. Either way, the Mew indicator line would decrease but by a different mechanism (up and back vs up and forward ). Looking by his before shot, you can see how he had an elongated "muzzle" like face but now the face has gotten shorter as his maxilla and whole skull moved upward. 

It's exactly as he described in the thread about expansion = recession . When the face lifts up the maxilla does come back but because it moves up his Mew indicator line actually shortened. In other words he was recessed but it seems his face fell down and forward simultaneously . Just like bimax symptoms.

Where does Dr. Mew, which I am assuming is your source, indicate that Bimaxillary Protrusion can be fixed with mewing? It is a phenotypical feature.

When Dr. Mew talks about correcting the face he always talks about the maxilla moving up and forward, never in one direction only. 

The thread you are referring to had awful looking face changes that looked so unnatural. Those in no way represent the kind of change Dr. Mew talks about nor that most people aspire for.

Be my guest to show the mew vertical indicator line on this picture. Just keep in mind without access to the teeth that's impossible. Plus there is no valid way to measure the difference between different pictures.

Posted by: Progress

I can see why you'd think that, but I don't agree with the terminology you use. It's not recession as defined in the context of craniofacial dystrophy. Here the face is kind of drawn towards the eyes in a concave-like manner, with both above-eye and under-eye support increasing. The face gets more compact. This compression means that some parts of the face are, inevitably, going to appear as if they were receding in relation to the rest of the skull. In addition, @SUGR1 was of the opinion that many people with downgrown faces are in a situation that could be considered a form of bimaxillary protrusion. If this is the case for me, then the backward movement of the jaws isn't be that surprising.

That protrusion SUGR was referring to in that specific context was alveolar. If you had any change in that area you would know. Your teeth and gum in the front will recessed back on an angle. Your lips would flare less. Your lips are flaring the same in both pictures. You just appear to have recessed face in the after picture because of the way you are posing.

Posted by: Progress

Note that the angles and markers you use are largely arbitrary, with most of their utility being intended for quantifying the results of surgical operations. The proportional consequences of fixing CFD through the body's own mechanisms are far more complex and unknown than those of surgically moving the maxilla up and forward. I hope you understand that the methods you use to measure changes are not really intended to quantify the kind of process we are undergoing. When the dynamics of the whole cranium are changing, a couple of angles will not convey much of useful information.

Dr. John Mew was referring to growing children when he mentioned that point. All of their bones are growing, which makes sense. The size and shape of your head will not change. Even if it did most of the change occurs in the face. You are not going to look different better if your face does not move forward of your cranium.

Beside, all of those angles and planes from cephalometric and photometric analysis are made to measure change in the face no matter how it happens (surgery, head gear, etc).

If your mewing can't show a change in the teeth and in those tests then it has  produced no change.

what about this one? seems like her skull got shorter

The proportional consequences of fixing CFD through the body's own mechanisms are far more complex and unknown than those of surgically moving the maxilla up and forward. I hope you understand that the methods you use to measure changes are not really intended to quantify the kind of process we are undergoing. When the dynamics of the whole cranium are changing, a couple of angles will not convey much of useful information.

Sorry @progress, but where did you get this information from? I'm very curious.
Anyway, it's quite easy to solve this debate. if you think that your whole skull is changing why don't you get a CT scan now and another in 6 to 12 month?
This will be very useful for you and for us.

Posted by: Slinky

what about this one? seems like her skull got shorter

Its hard to check because the pictures are too small. It also seems the head in the "after omt" front view picture is smaller because the camera is zoomed out more. Nonetheless, the improvement in facial muscle balance and lower jaw position is very clear.